NACF

Cycling + => Free For All => Topic started by: sam on August 09, 2020

Title: TWAM
Post by: sam on August 09, 2020
Having no skin in the game, I never gave "trans women are women" (https://time.com/5865581/transphobia-terf-harm/) much thought. When I finally did, I gravitated to "trans women are trans women", which seemed fair enough, if no more satisfactory than "Brexit means Brexit" ever was. It took a marathon session of Magdalen Berns vlogs this past week to help me make the leap to "trans women are men". This is no leap at all unless you usually try to start from a position of empathy.

I have the former Rachel McKinnon to thank for introducing me to the late Berns (and the Mumsnet (https://www.notanothercyclingforum.net/index.php?topic=1337.0) feminism chat board, which installed a shrine to JK Rowling (https://twitter.com/jk_rowling/status/1269382518362509313?lang=en) this summer, for igniting my interest in this knotty subject (https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3422033-That-its-not-just-what-you-say-its-also-how-much-you-talk-about-it?)). Rachel, who has since changed his name to Veronica Ivy, gave an indication of his empathy levels by his reaction as Berns lay in hospice for the glioblastoma which took her life almost a year ago.

(https://prettygoodbritain.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/mag450.jpg)

McKinnon/Ivy called her "a trash human" (https://twitter.com/SportIsARight/status/1165768706183614464) and said "maybe live by the maxim whereby, 'Don’t be the sort of person who people you've harmed are happy you're dying of brain cancer'." Words aren’t literally violence (https://terfisaslur.com/) as some in the debate are insisting, but the professor (https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/10/rachel-mckinnon-is-a-cheat-and-a-bully/) does tend to favour violent words.

(https://prettygoodbritain.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/thighnesstweet.gif)

Her Thighness struck gold in womens cycling. Anyone who follows sports knows this, so needless to say it was news to me. As Spiked put it: (https://www.spiked-online.com/2019/10/23/rachel-mckinnon-should-not-be-competing-against-women/) "It sounds like a great achievement until you realise that Rachel is a six-foot-tall, 14-stone bloke." That @DonaldJTrumpJr also rolled his eyes is perhaps no surprise, though raising a son who gets it is still not quite a good enough reason for me to vote for his grabby dad this November.


Sorry (https://www.them.us/story/shania-twain-trump-cancelled) seems to be the easiest word

"If you want to understand why this topic is so complicated and emotionally charged, please read on. (https://www.velonews.com/news/commentary-the-complicated-case-of-transgender-cyclist-dr-rachel-mckinnon/) If you want to yell and scream, go back to Twitter," wrote a sympathetic Fred Dreier, whose tweets are a model of decorum. (https://youtu.be/9dimPg6-zcc) I don't have any skin in that game, either, but even allowing that there are six-foot-tall 14-stone birds, (https://youtu.be/BHi0OiQEPCc) it's my considered opinion that women should not have to make room for men in their sports (https://twitter.com/MirandaNewsom/status/1352635083887431687) – including men who no longer have all the bits they were born with (which apparently isn't the case here, or indeed, for most transfolk).

(https://prettygoodbritain.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/mckinnon700.jpg)

It's up to men to share their spaces with people who do, after all, share their chromosomes. Activists who would storm the gates to XX might at least ponder Chesterton's fence: (https://spinstrangenesscharm.wordpress.com/2018/01/03/chestertons-parable-of-the-fence/)

Quote
In the matter of reforming things, as distinct from deforming them, there is one plain and simple principle; a principle which will probably be called a paradox. There exists in such a case a certain institution or law; let us say, for the sake of simplicity, a fence or gate erected across a road. The more modern type of reformer goes gaily up to it and says, "I don't see the use of this; let us clear it away." To which the more intelligent type of reformer will do well to answer: "If you don't see the use of it, I certainly won't let you clear it away. Go away and think. Then, when you can come back and tell me that you do see the use of it, I may allow you to destroy it.

Magdalen Berns, monotoned boring transphobe (https://youtu.be/fu5Dl_A2X0A) to those who have no appreciation for devastating logic delivered in deadpan, is now beyond cancel culture. For anyone else late to the party, here's a taster. (https://www.youtube.com/c/MagdalenBerns)

(https://prettygoodbritain.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/unwary.jpg)

(https://prettygoodbritain.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/les1.jpg)

(https://prettygoodbritain.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/riley1.jpg)



(https://prettygoodbritain.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/riley2.jpg)

(https://prettygoodbritain.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/les2.jpg)

(https://prettygoodbritain.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/reality.jpg)

(https://prettygoodbritain.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/everythingnothing.jpg)

(https://prettygoodbritain.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/bullshit.jpg)

The truth: (https://youtu.be/9PgwKkb_br8) we all have skin in that game.
Title: Transfixed
Post by: sam on September 13, 2020
Moving on from dogmatic mantras, she or he is fine with me


as long as they aren't being a click. (https://youtu.be/WY8MD3LNlZA) I refuse to enter the reality distortion field of outliers like Veronica (https://twitter.com/SportIsARighort/status/1178619997704327168) and Riley, who require a suspension of disbelief too far to engage with on their terms. In Riley's case, it isn't so much the laryngeal prominence (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzV7tuaoGH8&t=0m53s) as it is the covert aggression, cringey (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8ufIvkSgK4&t=1m47s) inauthenticity, and twisted intolerance. (The unrelenting jump cuts (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6FbZPVkVvg&t=5m19s) also do my head in, but it is the way of things. (https://youtu.be/XvK8xtVbopA))

Of the many replies to articles and blog posts and videos I've now consumed on this subject, the winner for pith has to be: "I'm not buying what you're selling."

Apologies to those expecting a post about flip-flop hubs.




Know Your Lingo (https://jollygoodthen-75205.medium.com/transgender-studies-a-glossary-c8a20656d0a6)
A refresher.

Everything is transphobic (https://wingsoverscotland.com/everything-is-transphobic/?fbclid=IwAR0RXbU2Pz6wXVlQ3Y9JyXJX_jkpCfI0pRrtCmjIBKfd3EL9ppWK-Csle0M)
Indeed. (https://medium.com/@notCursedE/a-glossary-of-transphobia-a31a001d279)

Boys vs Women (https://boysvswomen.com/#/)
Male High School Athletes vs Female Olympians.

Fact Checking a Widely Shared Rebuttal of J.K. Rowling (https://voidifremoved.medium.com/response-to-andrew-carter-re-j-k-rowling-pt-1-50e6e02a911e)
"After all, you’d have to be an insane pedant to go through the whole thread trying to correct the record. So, let’s begin." Part 2 (https://voidifremoved.medium.com/response-to-andrew-carter-re-j-k-rowling-pt-2-556d9b9113b1) (there are 4! – perseverance is amply rewarded) includes the best dissection of 'cis' I've ever read.

Somewhere over the Rainbow, something went terribly wrong (https://www.jessdewahls.com/blog/2019/8/5/somewhere-over-the-rainbow-something-went-terribly-wrong)
"Definitions matter. Respecting people, matters. Criticising bad ideas also matters."

An Open Letter to the Friend Who Thinks I Hate Transgender People (https://medium.com/@Cathoel.Jorss/an-open-letter-to-the-friend-who-thinks-i-hate-transgender-people-aa1cc3da177)
Sufferin' succotash.

Conundrum (https://www.brainpickings.org/2016/06/30/jan-morris-conundrum/)
See also The Many Lives of Jan Morris. (https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/25/books/jan-morris-in-my-minds-eye.html) Subscription or incognito mode required. Note to self: read everything Morris has ever written.

Is Julia Serano right that transwomen are female? (https://medium.com/@LogicalMarcus/is-julia-serano-right-that-transwomen-are-female-a989dca9d026)
Medium appears to have taken a position on the matter.

I Am a Transtrender and so can you (https://medium.com/@JessieRaeFisher/i-am-a-transtrender-and-so-can-you-81f3dbc59093)
To live outside the law you must be honest.

Riley J. Dennis Is An LGBTQ Educator (https://www.bustle.com/p/riley-j-dennis-is-lgbtq-educator-that-means-shes-a-target-8125398)
We're all getting an education.


Quote
You "educate" people by making reasoned arguments and providing evidence to back up any specific claims. Then you listen to people's responses to that, questioning any weaknesses or illogical reasoning, and then respond with further clarifications or thoughts to counter. And so on until an understanding of each other's viewpoints is reached.
- AssassinatedBeauty (https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4295102-Does-anyone-ever-wonder-how-this-will-end?pg=13)

A Pineapple is Not a Broken Orange (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLZkZFW1TQI)
Talented speaker, but TMI, and almost certainly a crowd of the unwary. Cassie doesn't handle discussion (https://medium.com/@lizwin42/youre-as-you-say-a-woman-who-is-rejecting-adult-human-female-as-the-definition-of-woman-53d777bda72b) (as opposed to cheerleading) too well, which is fairly typical.

On Gender, Blurring the Line Between Dogma and Farce (https://quillette.com/2019/12/07/on-gender-blurring-the-line-between-dogma-and-farce/)
"The current spasm of social panic..." I find the word spasm triggering.

Decoupled from reality (https://weeklyworker.co.uk/worker/1247/decoupled-from-reality/)
That train has left the station.

Can I ask trans women I'm dating about their genitals? (https://slate.com/human-interest/2019/11/ask-trans-women-about-their-genitals-while-dating.html)
The comments (https://slate.com/comments/human-interest/2019/11/ask-trans-women-about-their-genitals-while-dating.html) offer some relief from the advice on offer.

Quote
I kind of feel like shock or surprise shouldn't be part of the experience of undressing with someone you're about to have sex with.
Quote
Put down the penis, and come out with your hands up.
Quote
Expecting people to be attracted to equipment that they're simply not attracted to is -- well, let's call it quixotic.

Yes, it’s Wrong to Tell Trans People
You Don’t Want to Sleep With Them Because of Their Genitals
(https://medium.com/an-injustice/yes-its-wrong-to-tell-trans-people-you-don-t-want-to-sleep-with-them-because-of-their-genitals-cf2db2346813)
"I would never tell anyone who they should be attracted to. But."

The Secret Internet of TERFs (https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2020/12/reddit-ovarit-the-donald/617320/)
Fox News dropped "fair and balanced", The Atlantic picked it up. Worth it to find Sarah Ditum. (https://twitter.com/sarahditum/status/1336364058694578183)

J.K. Rowling and the Echo Champer of TERFs (https://slate.com/comments/human-interest/2020/06/jk-rowling-trans-men-terf.html)
Slate are clearly sold on the agenda, as is the author on his talents. Keep an eye out for the tireless JennyAnyDots; marvel at how she's largely ignored.

Responding to J.K. Rowling’s Essay (https://youtu.be/6Avcp-e4bOs)
I settled in for an hour of enlightenment, but got stuck on the Maya Forstater coverage starting nine minutes in, which included a brief shot of her "very clearly transphobic" tweets. With a fundamental disagreement on what constitutes transphobia, there seemed little point continuing. YMMV.

World's first Transgender MMA Fighter (https://gript.ie/fallon-fox-skull-bliss/)
Quite a speciman. (https://thepostmillennial.com/biological-male-who-broke-a-womans-skull-named-bravest-athlete-in-history)

Inspiration Profile: Pips Bunce (https://wearethecity.com/inspirational-profile-pips-bunce-director-credit-suisse/)
Not technically a wanker banker, but close.
(https://prettygoodbritain.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/operationgame3.jpg)

Why I'm Not Getting "The Surgery" (https://youtu.be/z1ZWX5r_0MI)
Disproves that old adage that men seldom make passes at girls who aren't lasses. Honestly educational. I've assumed cost was the main reason for not going all the way. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7AnVxFzMFA&t=12m32s)

So, About This Surgery (https://lonelyts.blog/2020/06/04/so-about-this-surgery/)
Are you sure you want to be scrolling down, braveheart?

Forget What Gender Activists Tell You (https://quillette.com/2020/10/06/forget-what-gender-activists-tell-you-heres-what-medical-transition-looks-like/)
Hard to forget.

Girl Dick, the Cotton Ceiling and the Cultural War on Lesbians and Women (https://mirandayardley.com/en/girl-dick-the-cotton-ceiling-and-the-cultural-war-on-lesbians-girls-and-women/)
You had me at girl dick.

A Glossary Of Transphobia (https://medium.com/@notCursedE/a-glossary-of-transphobia-a31a001d279)
Speaking of which. (https://twitter.com/SparrowsFlying/status/1313165998607007749)

100 Ways to Make the World Better for Non-Binary People (https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/evkwm4/how-to-be-an-ally-to-non-binary-gender-non-conforming-people-support?fbclid=IwAR1bT_CTuIFh3C3Ko6p91Xi-JwzvIZfe2WkeDFTgYhB-Qy0SlIwV3O3V7pw)
"Embrace the contradictory and confusing." Sure thing, boss.


Quote
42. Give your pet gender-neutral pronouns like "they." This is awesome practice. (And ask me about my rant on how we can never know animals' genders since they can't speak to us...)
So many teachable moments, (https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:KgP_dwP1a5cJ:https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/inspired-life/wp/2016/04/05/dont-laugh-i-have-a-serious-reason-for-raising-my-cats-gender-neutral/) so little time.

(https://prettygoodbritain.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/catwoman325.jpg)

"Gender Fluid" Person Confuses Everyone (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwvhGfbeo1Y)
Nicky Campbell needs to be drowned like a kitten. That said, I wasn't confused. Maybe a word that rhymes with confused.

disclaimer
Google informs me that "needs to be drowned like a kitten" has never before been uttered online, which comes as a surprise. The phrase popped into my head and refused to be forgotten. For the sake of clarity, I do not condone the drowning of kittens, television presenters, or indeed any living creature, no matter how hapless. Embracing the contradictory and confusing can go too far.


Next on INSIDE edition: Fisherman found guilty of staging kitten rescue video
[close]

Why transgender people are ignored by modern medicine (https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20200814-why-our-medical-systems-are-ignoring-transgender-people)
A cautionary tale of getting what you want, and getting it good and hard.

Things Not To Say To A Trans Person (https://youtu.be/pvBwWeG4Rpc)
Annoying in that special way the BBC has of bringing it out in people.

First Day (https://www.rt.com/op-ed/498866-transgender-bbc-children-propaganda/)
Did someone mention shameless? (https://youtu.be/Z4PNC-G8N7o)

(https://prettygoodbritain.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/firstday.jpg)
Ah, the perils of top tubes

It's not complicated (https://twitter.com/debbiehayton/status/1228363554975363072?lang=en)
That a person can spend as much time as I have wondering if the M in TWAM should be Men or Male shows just how complicated it has become. It should probably be the latter, but it doesn't really matter because both are considered transphobic. (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/trans-woman-debbie-hayton-faces-ban-for-transphobia-96tfkl5gc)

I've Given Birth, But I Am Not My Children's Mother. Where Do I Belong? (https://the-motherload.co.uk/ive-given-birth-but-i-am-not-my-childrens-mother-where-do-i-belong/?fbclid=IwAR311k--soiBMnxt72quS3VhWYQsiRp1DkLIx5gY_wLKSwIJ767lWI3sonY)
Possibly on a different site.

Call 'em They (https://twitter.com/mxacdumlao/status/1054082502829182976)
You get one yes. Choose carefully.

Boop/bob/beep (https://www.nme.com/news/tv/the-mandalorian-fans-want-gina-carano-fired-for-mocking-trans-people-2752622?amp)
May the Force be with thee.

There's no such thing as a non-binary haircut (https://thepostmillennial.com/theres-no-such-thing-as-a-non-binary-haircut/)
Another reminder that history rhymes.

(https://prettygoodbritain.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/guesswho.jpg)
Do I need a haircut? There's a binary answer.

No, misgendering me is not okay or justifiable. Yes, this is a big deal. (http://www.entirelyamelia.com/2014/01/02/misgendering-okay-justifiable-yes-big-deal/)
That I value civility and thus can live with a degree of cognitive dissonance in aid of those suffering from dysphoria does not mean I agree that corporeal reality must be cast aside in the race to a brave new world.

"Am I not a woman like they are?" asked Amelia in 2014, to which the answer is of course no. A few years later he was sliced all the fuck up, (http://www.amelia.run/2016/02/06/i-got-sliced-all-the-fuck-up/) and although that doesn't change inconvenient biological facts, she's gone some distance to earn the pronoun. I would be more impressed if s/he had been a better sport (https://time.com/5232877/boston-marathon-transgender-runners/) all along and competed with men.

In The New Transgender World, Women No Longer Exist (https://thefederalist.com/2019/10/30/in-the-new-transgender-world-women-no-longer-exist/)
"The only way ensure that everyone who knows she is a woman is treated as a woman is to destroy any definition of what it is to be a woman. Is this so hard to understand?"

(https://prettygoodbritain.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/strawman.gif)(https://prettygoodbritain.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/strawman.gif)(https://prettygoodbritain.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/strawman.gif)

Assigned Male (https://twitter.com/AssignedMale)
Usually found preaching before a congregation of straw (https://imgur.com/cPSilL5) men. Here's (https://youtu.be/rc1LjqtmlGU) a good critique. This one's (https://youtu.be/sFrYpCUrWSw) a bit more fun.

Barry makes comics (https://twitter.com/search?q=%23PoliCartoon%20from%3Abarrydeutsch&src=typed_query&f=live)
More straw. More men.

Motorcyclist Who Identifies As Bicyclist Sets Cycling World Record (https://babylonbee.com/news/motorcycle-that-identifies-as-bicycle-sets-world-cycling-record)

Why J.K. Rowling must die (https://excelpope.net/2020/09/16/why-j-k-rowling-must-die/)
With handy flowcharts, if screenshots (https://medium.com/@rebeccarc/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-activists-a-story-in-screenshots-78e01dca68d) aren't enough.

I Am A Transwoman. I Am In The Closet. I Am Not Coming Out. (https://medium.com/@jencoates/i-am-a-transwoman-i-am-in-the-closet-i-am-not-coming-out-4c2dd1907e42)
"Forced to carry multiple perspectives like bactrian humps" isn't a sentence you read every day.

Are Pronouns Important? (https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p08vcyd7)
"Sometimes I misgender myself."

Eddie Izzard Publicly Requests ‘She’ & ‘Her’ Pronouns (https://www.starobserver.com.au/news/eddie-izzard-publicly-requests-she-her-pronouns/199379)
Collective gender euphoria, here we come.

ANOTHER DAY IN (THE MANBOX) (https://medium.com/@MichaelConroy68/my-first-day-out-by-eddie-izzard-c8ff9bcae245)
Not so fast.

Can't a girl mode ride her bike in peace (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-9473677/Eddie-Izzard-styles-mini-skirt-stiletto-boots-rides-London-bike.html?ito=email_share_article-top) without a big song and dance being made about it?

(https://prettygoodbritain.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/eddie350.jpg)
For the Eddiefication of those who think he's a better catch in boy mode

We need to talk about Ellen Page (https://www.spiked-online.com/2020/12/02/we-need-to-talk-about-ellen-page/)
OK, I'm listening. (https://spectator.us/elleniot-ellen-elliot-page-too-old/) "Cheer, hit the ‘like’ button, don’t think too much about it, the marching orders go... And leave it to Big Tech to immediately correct the historical record in Elleniot’s service. There was never someone named Ellen and Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia."

Chloe Dygert apology for social media conduct “not sufficient” says Rapha (https://road.cc/content/news/chloe-dygert-apology-not-sufficient-says-rapha-279093)
Definitely not buying what they're selling.

Cat Graffam (https://twitter.com/catgraffam)
"i always land on my feet & throw up on the floor". I'd buy what she's selling.

Gender is not a spectrum (https://aeon.co/essays/the-idea-that-gender-is-a-spectrum-is-a-new-gender-prison)
"I too believe my thoughts, feelings, aptitudes and dispositions are far too interesting, well-rounded and complex to simply be a 'cis woman'. I, too, would like to transcend socially constructed stereotypes about my female body and the assumptions others make about me as a result of it..."

From the comments:
Quote
I find several things wrong with this article.

The first is that the subject of the article suggests an unwholesome self-absorption and self-centredness. Practically all of us have things about us that are socially or intimately awkward. But, most of us, we do not indulge in marathon sessions of introspection in an effort to find out how we would like the world to treat us. In my experience the world, unless it has some political interest it treating you otherwise, will treat you as it wishes.

The second is that it is entirely from a feminine point of view. The author is either speaking for men, dismissing them as inconsequential or simply branding them as ‘the oppressor’. As a working class male my perception of social and cultural reality is entirely different to hers. I have been oppressed by both males and females when they had power over me. Oppression is not the exclusive domain of the masculine male, it goes with the power whether it be physical, financial or economic.

Nature doesn't care how we identify. It assigns us a role in the interests of reproduction and how we handle that role decides the chances of the continued survival and development of our genes. In the general melee of survival some class of society will develop invariably with a pecking order based on strength of some kind. Eventually social and cultural conditions become expressions of the balance of power in society and culture. Whatever that balance is the one certainty is that some of those in power will be oppressors. If feminists currently feel empowered and powerful then, for sure, they are oppressing. But they do not seem to mind.

Quote
"We are dying chemical reactors powering about 4 quadrillion binary logic gates."

Should Cis People have the Same Rights as Everyone Else? (https://katymontgomerie.medium.com/should-cis-people-the-same-rights-as-everyone-else-6b8ef061fac3)
The indefatigable Katy Montgomerie tries her hand at satire.

A short dialogue with oneself

Addressing The Claims In JK Rowling’s Justification For Transphobia (https://katymontgomerie.medium.com/addressing-the-claims-in-jk-rowlings-justification-for-transphobia-7b6f761e8f8f)

Quote
Being called a TERF, or transphobic, isn’t an insult. It’s not a bullying tactic. It’s not the same as saying someone has fleas. It’s a description of someone whose views come from a place of irrational prejudice of trans people.

Thanks for clearing that up.

Quote
Just how when we are discussing gay rights, women’s rights or the rights of people of colour, pointing out homophobia, misogyny or racism is the first step towards a rational discussion, calling out irrational prejudice of trans people is the first step here.

Go on. I mean, you’ve lost me, but I’m still here.

Quote
There is no denying that all of these accusations are sometimes overused or mistargetted, but that isn’t an excuse to instantly shrug them off every single time they are pointed out. How can we discuss an issue that is undeniably, demonstrably surrounded by irrational prejudice if we aren’t even allowed to call that out for what it is?

We may have found common ground.

Quote
You cannot address oppression if you cannot name your oppressor.

You shall overcome, eh?
[close]

Tulsi tweets the truth (https://twitter.com/TulsiGabbard/status/1337501993330298880)
The truth hurts: it is known.

Umberto Eco & The Bunnymen (https://twitter.com/velouteuse)
Earns a link for the handle alone.

Transtweeting (https://twitter.com/ZJemptv/status/1338795606937120769)
Not a promising start, but went on to raise some smiles.

Public Pronoun List (https://pronouny.xyz/pronouns/list/public)
Truly a public service.

Pronouns are about power (https://grahamlinehan.substack.com/p/pronouns-are-about-power)
Trans-English.

Can someone please explain… (https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4104554-Can-someone-please-explain-trans?pg=3)
Quote
A suggestion OP. If you read any of the posts on this thread and find them to be describing things that don't seem to make sense or are incomprehensible feel free to assume that they're actually wrong rather than assuming that there's some profound complexity you don't understand.

TERF's Original Sin (https://rejs71.medium.com/terfs-original-sin-e03542443d64)
Guilt-by-association time again. Bonus points for 'Sonderkommando'.

Bunburys Eighth – Sealion training for beginners (https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4164702-Bunbury-s-Eighth-Sealion-training-for-beginners)
Mumsnet community disruptors watch, one of a series. FWR (https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3281196-FWR) reminds me of HPC (https://www.notanothercyclingforum.net/index.php?topic=2141.0): true believers I happen to agree with, but seemingly a despised minority. Though it remains to be seen how much of a minority they are.

Backlash (https://www.seventeen.com/beauty/celeb-beauty/a27206616/james-charles-addresses-transgender-comment/)
"Trans men are men. Period." You're seventeen, so you should know.

Are we the baddies? (https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4178681-Does-anyone-ever-have-a-are-we-the-baddies-moment)
Are you spewing hatred and abuse at everyone who has the temerity to disagree? Do you often find that violent imagery is necessary to get your ideas across? If not, then probably not.

Quote
Women are not an identity.  (https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4180541-Feeling-like-I-have-lost-hope)Not a feeling. Not a legislative status to be awarded with a certificate. We're the people who are born and die female. No lie will ever be powerful enough to cover that reality. Not ever.

Quote
I really like to live and let people live (https://ovarit.com/o/GenderCritical/29641/did-the-us-greens-learn-nothing-from-the-challenor-scandal) their lives as they see fit, so long as they're not actively hurting people in the process. Sometimes this thought creeps into my mind because I want to help people who are so disassociated from their own bodies that they feel like an alien trapped inside of a shell. I especially want to help because I've been there. I've had those thoughts and I've had those feelings. For a long time, being against trans was like being against LGB for me; what place did I have to speak on behalf of other's pain and experience, or to deny them of treatment that they said was required?

What it always comes down to though is that the LGB movement genuinely supported loving yourself as you were, that you could be who you are, in the body that you have, loving the people that you do, and that it was OK, that it was innate, that it was normal. Accepting same-sex attraction requires that everyone change absolutely nothing. A woman dating another woman affects no one but the two people in a relationship, unless you're simply morally outraged. The trans lobby instead tells you that if your mind doesn't fit a certain criteria, based on literally anything, then you need to change yourself. It pushes that it's normal to hate your body, and that to love your body, you need medication, surgery, and treatment for life. It normalizes self hate in the guise of self acceptance. On top of that, it requires everyone else to capitulate in both language and actions. Changing how words are used and what they mean, and forcing others to be quiet about their discomfort and needs for safety.

I will never feel wrong about opposing a movement that pushes for the normalization of experimental cosmetic surgery on children and teens. I will never feel wrong about opposing a movement that enforces gender stereotypes. I will never feel wrong about opposing a movement that disregards genuine safeguarding concerns. I will never feel wrong for opposing a movement where any critic or call for discussion is met with overt aggression and threats.

UK census, a thread (https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4187569-UK-Census-guidance-on-how-to-answer-sex-question-must-be-rewritten-High-Court-rules)
Provided as an example of uncivil discourse. Look for replies to GottogetaGRC. Transphobic? No. A bit mean spirited? Yep. Goady, in the parlance. Not all, but some. "Word it in a particular way and you will get a better response." Yep.

Laé D. Boi (https://www.them.us/video/watch/this-drag-rapper-talks-dating-as-a-trans-femme)
Not related to La-Z-Boy AFAIK. Do tell us more about the subtle nuances of being a woman.

My Pronouns are Fluid and My Identity is Solid (https://medium.com/prismnpen/my-pronouns-are-fluid-and-my-identity-is-solid-2fb77d3b95ac)
Utterly exhausting.


My Existence Is Not Up For Debate (https://medium.com/gender-from-the-trenches/my-existence-is-not-up-for-debate-1e8be49b5cc)
Not gawking but yawning.

The Missing Link (https://emmah1017.medium.com/the-missing-link-a80a92f5ba13)
I'm glad you exist, Emma.

“because transphobia” (https://twitter.com/lacroicsz/status/1119345421674008576)
Quote
Had I killed myself, activists could have dug into my life and saw that I was raising money for top surgery, and that my parents didn’t want me to transition. Had I killed myself, my story would be PERFECT for trans activists to drive home their point. Had I killed myself, all of this would be erased. My own parents might have regretted the way they fought for me. CNN might have shown my picture and lamented the transphobia that killed me. I would cease to be a complicated individual in need of well rounded, compassionate help

The Wrong Kind of Trans (https://rgellman.medium.com/the-wrong-kind-of-trans-98154ca487e)
Derivation of 'quisling' only necessary insofar as Godwin’s law must be obeyed.

Basic Biology (https://youtu.be/ygK8HmkOFDY)
Somehow Controversial.

Debunking the ACLU's '4 Myths About Trans People' (https://colinwright.substack.com/p/debunking-the-aclus-4-myths-about?utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web&utm_source=copy)
Another institution captured.

The Sacred Androgen: The Transgender Debate (http://review.antiochcollege.org/sacred-androgen-transgender-debate-daniel-harris)
Yeah, this didn't go over too well.

Tavistock trust whistleblower David Bell (https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/may/02/tavistock-trust-whistleblower-david-bell-transgender-children-gids)
What doing the right thing looks like.

First Dog On The Moon, Fixed (https://grahamlinehan.substack.com/p/first-dog-on-the-moon-fixed)
The Guardian giveth, but mostly they takeath away.

Dear Teen Girls: Leave the Vulnerable Kids Alone (https://www.patreon.com/posts/dear-teen-girls-50680995)
Bravo.

Owen Jones vs Robert Webb (https://thecritic.co.uk/owen-jones-vs-robert-webb/)
A Witchfinder General's work is never done.

This is an essay About Penises (https://www.autostraddle.com/this-is-an-essay-about-penises/)
That was an essay about a dick. (https://ovarit.com/o/GenderCritical/28709/man-writes-essay-about-his-dick-on-supposedly-lesbian-website)

When I Think About You I Terf Myself (https://ovarit.com/o/GenderCritical/33468/when-i-think-about-you-i-terf-myself)
Not going gently into that good night. (AGP = autogynephilia (https://quillette.com/2019/11/06/what-is-autogynephilia-an-interview-with-dr-ray-blanchard/))

Let's Have No More Talk of Dysphoria (https://www.the11thhourblog.com/post/let-s-have-no-more-talk-of-dysphoria)
Follow the money. (https://www.the11thhourblog.com/post/queering-medical-ethics-toward-a-profiteering-model-of-human-body-mutilation)

How is it "gender critical" to impose rigid binary social categories based on sex? (https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4295999-How-is-it-gender-critical-to-impose-rigid-binary-social-categories-based-on-sex?pg=8)
Dive right in.

Transgender ideology (https://www.peaktrans.org/transgender-ideology/)
Always more links.



"I invite you to disenchant (https://youtu.be/I7QXcYBgNIY) all of my fairy tales."

Quote
Things like “Gender identity”, “born in the wrong body” or “TWAW” really are incredibly effective and misleading linguistic tools being used to justify the notion that Sex is irrelevant and that male and female are mere identities.
– Lorelei (https://medium.com/@hatpinwoman/a-reponse-to-jennifer-bilek-and-julia-long-338924df34c)
Title: MIA
Post by: sam on September 18, 2020
By now you'll know there's a battle (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvI_FYarYIY&t=0m55s) between TRAs and TERFs.

TRA = Trans Rights Activist
TERF = Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminist
Mumsnet TERF = "Tired of Explaining Reality to Fuckwits"

You need a special shirt to be a feminist.

(https://prettygoodbritain.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/vagina-shirt2.jpg)

I might be able to fit into one of these

(https://prettygoodbritain.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/lovenotwarshirt.jpg)

but you don't go to Mumsnet for peace and quiet, do you.

(https://prettygoodbritain.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/jollytime.jpg)
(https://prettygoodbritain.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/colbertpopcorn.jpg)

(https://prettygoodbritain.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/peacepost.gif)

Not everybody considered this to be an olive branch, and Phoenix1234 would go on to feed cynics enough evidence to cast more than enough reasonable doubt. Finally a smoking gun was produced: the OP (https://twitter.com/joss_prior) was caught tweeting about how easy it was to troll. Woe is me, no screenshot. This video captures the spirit of Joss's celebrations:


Then all was zapped.
ZAP (https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4026348-Is-peace-possible?)
ZAP (https://twitter.com/joss_prior/status/1306678506630373376)

You gotta feel for the regulars in these discussions, having to deal with shapeshifters (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xj04ACsMXTg&t=1m54s) all the time. At least they get a lot of practice (https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4037254-Gender-Critical-fundamentally-right-wing-according-to-Vox?pg=1) honing their arguments and lobbing food for thought.

(https://prettygoodbritain.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/middlemeet.jpg)

A progressive might counter: what's so unjust? That's how progress is made.

Quote
OvaHere Thu 17-Sep-20 20:24:05

As an illustration of goalpost shifting this is where we've travelled to in less than a decade.



Women and transsexual women

became

Women and transwomen

became

Cis women and trans women

became

Women and trans women are both female

became

Women and cis women (implication that only trans women are women without a prefix)

became

Women (again meaning trans women) and cervix havers/utererus havers/menstruators/non men/people who need an abortion.

It doesn’t take a feminist to see the problem here.

Men on Mumsnet are generally about as welcome as this cyclist:


Going full trans is no guarantee they'll make the cut, no matter how much they may want to gather with the sisterhood to fight the patriarchy. Peace in our time? Not bloody likely.
Title: Bravo channel
Post by: Howard Cosell on February 14, 2021
Ladies and gentlemen and those still making up their minds, something astonishing is happening. See for yourselves. (https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/is-the-heteronormative-view-thriving-on-cyclechat.271741/page-45#post-6313018) A civilian is attempting to take control of the ship. Some passengers are applauding, while others have long since bailed out.

Forum moderation and heteronormativity! It's like watching Ali fight Liston on the back of Moby Dick as Ahab arm wrestles Ishmael handicapped by a monkey on his back.

Look at that little monkey! (https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=118315.msg2593815#msg2593815) What's that? You want me to step away from the mic? I don't understand. (https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Look%20at%20that%20little%20monkey%20run%21)
Title: Strange Bedfellows Dept.
Post by: Howard Cosell on February 16, 2021
The man with no name[1] and I agree: to most observers, this duel (https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/is-the-heteronormative-view-thriving-on-cyclechat.271741/page-57#post-6315196) has probably been a draw. My view is that M started well but kind of lost it, her poor arguments and frequent sailing close to the wind of ad hominem rendering her ever less convincing. Serial flouncelets (https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/is-the-heteronormative-view-thriving-on-cyclechat.271741/page-47) didn't help.

(https://prettygoodbritain.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/facepalmx3.jpg)

Au revoir  (https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/is-the-heteronormative-view-thriving-on-cyclechat.271741/page-57#post-6315144) ≠ goodbye is a distinction without a great difference, ohdear. (https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/is-the-heteronormative-view-thriving-on-cyclechat.271741/page-56#post-6315139) This was covered in How To Deal With People You Disagree With[2] under Common mistakes. I would class believing legal fictions (https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/is-the-heteronormative-view-thriving-on-cyclechat.271741/page-59#post-6315456) to be non-fiction as another.

Spectators await moderation, such as it is.[3] Some are experiencing an attack of the vapours. (https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/is-the-heteronormative-view-thriving-on-cyclechat.271741/page-58#post-6315335)


1. Last seen being wrong (https://www.notanothercyclingforum.net/index.php?topic=1638.msg11394#msg11394)
2. Not available as a podcast (https://prettygoodbritain.com/wp/?p=5696)
3. Bias alert (https://www.notanothercyclingforum.net/index.php?topic=2575.0)
3b. Et voilà (https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/is-the-heteronormative-view-thriving-on-cyclechat.271741/page-61#post-6315906)

Short quiz: guess (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-55995979) what's often out of fashion, never out of style.
Title: Honesty
Post by: Mr William Joel on February 17, 2021
I mentioned Brexit at the beginning: if you chose the wrong side you may have made an enemy for life, or at least forced a reappraisal by friends – "like finding out someone you otherwise respect is a Scientologist."* Nobody still in touch with their humanity wants there to be sides on this issue, but as long as rights are in opposition, there will be.

Truth needs honesty to make it whole. I don't have to agree with you, nice as that is. I do, however, have to believe that you're basically an honest person. This is ascertained by the integrity of your arguments. (That's probably one ascertain too many.) Liking the cut of your jib also comes into play, seeing as we're not all debating society material.

(https://prettygoodbritain.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/faceoff.jpg)
The ears have it

Lacking the bare necessities for debate, i.e., opposing views, I must needs tune in elsewhere – preferably somewhere with bikes nearby, as they make it more inviting. It's a shame when a forum no platforms itself. To coin a phrase, you might not do politics, but politics does you.

(https://prettygoodbritain.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/claudiuscoin.jpg)
Claudius, apparently part giraffe

* actual comment I’ve just made up
Title: Mum's the word
Post by: House of Lords on February 25, 2021
Pregnant women become mums. (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-56204865) Who knew.

"In the course of debating the maternity bill in the House of Commons, the word 'woman' was used some three-hundred times, and yet it doesn’t appear in the legislation once; instead, the draft bill refers to 'pregnant people'." - The Critic (https://thecritic.co.uk/how-the-governments-maternity-bill-seeks-to-deny-the-reality-of-sex/)

House of Lords debate (https://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/3ca1efa2-16a5-489d-a5a0-5d929bff81f6?in=14:32:30&out=17:23:22)

'Lesbian peer Baroness Barker tears down tired transphobic arguments in powerful House of Lords speech' - Pink News (https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2021/02/25/baroness-barker-lesbian-peer-house-of-lords-maternity-bill-trans-inclusive-language/)

"I feel that Baroness Barker has gone off the rails a bit. If we were to always use 'gender neutral' language then we wouldn't be able to call this a Maternity Bill." - Lord Forsyth

"This extreme ideology does not want equal rights whilst recognising our differences. It wants to deny those differences exist at all. Happily that agenda has been rolled back today." - Lord Lilley

"It is factually incorrect, as has been referred to here today, that only women can become pregnant." - Baroness Brinton

"This is the ideology of the madhouse. It is a plain fact of human existance that only women get pregnant." - Baroness Meyer

"I make myself feel better when watching @UKHouseofLords members readily disregarding trans people by reminding myself that they’re old, and most of them will be dead within the next 20 years!" - @mimmymum (https://twitter.com/mimmymum/status/1364985789654978562)

"Thank fuck for The House of Lords." - Mumsnetter (https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4176497-History-in-the-making-Watch-Parliament-Live-at-2-30pm?pg=2)

"For a group to be properly protected by the law, they must be properly identified in the law."
Title: Dramatic reveal
Post by: Baroness Potato Head on February 27, 2021
I was assigned male at birth.
(https://prettygoodbritain.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/potatohead400.jpg)
Moment of conception

Fortunately I didn’t let my assumed genitalia define me or my life goals, or I might have been just another Mr.

Science tells us that a raw potato produces about .5 volts of energy, but by boiling, we can produce 10x as much. I harnessed this to achieve the rank of Baron, which today I disclose to the world has been a lie.

Our knowledge of whatever ology you care to name has progressed far beyond what most of us were taught as children. We live in a complexted world of nuance. You say potāto, I say potäto.
Title: A cautionary tale
Post by: Elliot on March 08, 2021
(https://prettygoodbritain.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/Clarecomments.jpg)
Would you resist? After reading the following (https://clareflourish.wordpress.com/2021/02/27/womans-place-uk-transphobia/#comment-48951) on Clare Flourish's blog, it turns out I couldn’t. (I also liked the font.)

Quote
Trans people are real. The hostility is such that no-one “wakes up one morning” and declares themself a woman on a whim. I don’t have a cervix, and trans men do, but being a woman is so much more than a reproductive system.

Gender critical folks are often accused of reducing women to their pesky (https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/56276626) reproductive organs. I think that’s what triggered me:

Quote
You can’t know what being a woman is like, and that’s OK. It doesn’t make you any less a person. I’m sorry you’ll likely regard this as hate speech, but it most certainly doesn’t come from a place of hate. We fundamentally disagree that a man can be a woman and vice versa. I’m male, and welcome you with open arms into our sex.

Hate speech got a mention thanks to her recent post (https://clareflourish.wordpress.com/2021/03/03/facebook-and-transphobia/) about Facebook, a klaxon if ever there was.

You'll see I used the name ’Elliot’. This was inspired by Elliot Page. If an edit button had been available I might have worked on that last bit, which could be misconstrued as the world's clumsiest pick-up line, (https://www.cartooncollections.com/directory/keyword/chat_up_lines) but oh well.

(https://prettygoodbritain.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/juno500.jpg)
A one-pipe problem

In fact none of that might have survived an edit. I felt bad for posting it, almost trollish. Blame the box. On revisiting the scene of the crime, I found a response:

Quote
Hi, Elliot. Thank you for commenting.

Not hate speech, so much as arrogant idiocy. You refuse to accept the category of “trans woman”. What on Earth do you imagine “being a woman is like”? It’s more than one thing, Elliot, even for cis women!

I didn't really want to dive headlong into what on Earth being a woman was like, because frankly I don't have a clue. That was kind of the point of my post, because manifestly, neither does Clare. Now feeling somewhat committed, I offered this:

Quote
Hi Clare, thanks for your reply – though note your own recent admonition to The Buzzz (“Please be courteous” https://clareflourish.wordpress.com/2021/03/03/facebook-and-transphobia/#comment-49003. Granted, “arrogant idiocy” is not technically an ad hominem, but some may call that a distinction without a difference).

I don’t refuse to accept the category of “trans woman”, I merely refuse to accept it as = to woman. We’ll never see eye to eye on this, but I do applaud your willingness to accept comments even from people like me.

One more thing – thanks for using the word “arrogant”. It was on the tip of my tongue for some reason.

Not everyone appreciates when they leave ammunition lying around.

Clare's reply to this was by way of annotation, (https://clareflourish.wordpress.com/2021/02/27/womans-place-uk-transphobia/#comment-49074) my first and last paragraphs having been cut but apparently still readable to others who had also commented.

ad fundum
(https://prettygoodbritain.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/buzzz500.gif)
[close]
Speaking of triggering, this did serve to remind me that the audience for such blogs indeed includes those in a fragile state. While I sympathise, these issues are affecting more and more people, and we mustn’t be forced to tiptoe around, at least in public debate. Her space doesn't really qualify, so she can snip at will, but if she's genuinely fishing for a range of comments it does have a stifling effect.

Let's go with a screenshot next, not because I'm in love with my highfalutin terminology, but as a change from dark quote boxes:

(https://prettygoodbritain.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/elliotframe.gif)

Incorrigible whoring for NACF aside, I'm not actually sure I want her to take me up on my offer to post here – and why should she? She's got her own platform, read by more people than this. Partly it’s because I’m lazy and this promises to be an epic time sink. (https://twitter.com/jollygoodthen/status/556462599395893248) Even liberal quoting or linking to people better versed on the subject (because lazy, remember) still takes time.

Clare cut-n-pasted my last 'graph and added more annotations. I then signed off, our unintentional commemoration of International Women's Day complete.

Quote
That’s a genuine email address, though I don’t suppose I blame you for not contacting me. I chose that route of communication rather than providing my blog address because it seemed harmless enough, and I wanted more information on which to base a judgement before opening the possible floodgates. Am still uncertain on that score, but your commentary isn’t promising.

I’ve heard of sealioning. Thanks for bringing it up (and for the link to the cartoon (http://wondermark.com/c/2015-07-03-1139argue4.png)), as it’s always good to examine one’s own motives. I was motivated by your words and your invitation to comment. Beyond that, I will confess only to a certain persistence (reading from Wikipedia’s definition), now quite spent.

As for verbosity, I’m far too courteous to draw parallels with pots and kettles. In any case, it ain’t true: I use the words necessary to the task at hand.

[OK, maybe a few more. Because writing isn’t just a bare-bones exchange of information.

While I could easily run a red pen through my own replies, her characterizations of them cross a line from uncharitableness to, well, wrongness. At the very least she could use a course in artful mockery. - Ed.]

If they’re not words you like, doubtless you will count them too many.

I’ll leave you in peace now. [unnecessary last word]

This elicited a final spasm of annotation (https://tinyurl.com/yuvxtn88) in place of conversation, followed by what I'm going to interpret as a kiss (https://clareflourish.wordpress.com/2021/02/27/womans-place-uk-transphobia/#comment-49084) goodbye. At least I'd made a lateral promotion to loquacious.

(https://prettygoodbritain.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/prolixthesaurus.jpg)
last buzzzwords
Dare I say apropos?

(https://prettygoodbritain.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/lastbuzzzwords.gif)
[close]

Wait, there’s more.
Is it possible I helped inspire a new comments policy? Exhibit A is that the announcement (https://clareflourish.wordpress.com/2021/02/27/womans-place-uk-transphobia/#comment-49121) appeared in what you might call Elliot's afterbirth. Exhibit B: (https://clareflourish.wordpress.com/2021/03/09/comment-policy-2021/)

Quote
I am not particularly interested in long arguments showing I am bad. Don’t call me an idiot, a hypocrite, discourteous or arrogant, (https://clareflourish.wordpress.com/2021/02/27/womans-place-uk-transphobia/comment-page-1/#comment-49074) not even if you quote me to prove this to your own satisfaction.

Willful misinterpretations and woeful hypocrisy aside, I don’t have a problem with any of it, even where I strongly disagree (and I'll not call her an idiot even in this bastion of privacy): her blog, her rules, etc. None of it will apply to me anyway, as I won’t be going back, having had my fill of Clare and remaining unsatisfied.
Title: Say what
Post by: XY on April 05, 2021
I've come around. If you say trans women are women, and you're a heterosexual man lookin’ for love, (https://youtu.be/hIuryZ8JUJM) trans women belong in your dating pool. Same goes for women who are reactionary enough to have a predisposition to coupling exclusively with those with male [sic] anatomy. Gay guys and lesbians don't get a pass either, if they're true believers.

While it's none of my business whom you invite under the sheets, cognitive dissonance is a turn-off.

Your only out is to admit that you are in fact transphobic as defined by the social media powers that be.


It took the hagiographer (https://www.vice.com/en/article/wjq99z/why-cant-my-famous-gender-nonconforming-friends-get-laid) of instagram influencer Alok Vaid-Mennon to make me see the error of my ways. As India Willoughby put it (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-trending-42652947) way back in the mists of 2018, "all this superficial stuff that you are a woman and all that sounds great and is the right thing to say. But it makes no difference if people don't believe it - that's the problem." Don't be the problem: be the solution.

In other news, Glenn Greenwald has sadly (https://twitter.com/ggreenwald/status/1378816980036292609) fallen from the pedastal I put him on. (Owen Jones was never tall enough, metaphorically speaking of course, to get on one in the first place.)

Andrew Sullivan struggles to see the obvious losers in this no-win (https://twitter.com/sullydish/status/1379145974816325641) debate, and reckons that an experiment needs to be done to help him figure out the definition of humanity. (https://twitter.com/mostlyh85078050/status/1379113010803789831)

British Cycling have launched a consultation (https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/about/article/20210325-about-bc-news-British-Cycling-launches-consultation-on-Transgender-participation-policy-0) on their transgender participation policy. Their code of conduct says "Treat all Transgender and Non-Binary Participants with dignity and respect," which sounds great until you read that you're to "Support the Transgender or Non-Binary Participant with their choice of changing facilities." This strikes me as showing a lack of respect for the privacy of those who don't believe you can change sex, but I guess that's another reason people like me don't belong in British Cycling.


Psssst (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYmtzTGQIfk)

Quote
It's bizarre (https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4193645-Emma-Bateman-Co-Chair-of-Green-Party-Women-suspended-for-Querying-Whether-Transwomen-are-Female?pg=4) the way only trans people's feelings matter according to this ideology. Why don't my feelings about my body and its femaleness matter - wanting to be able to have a safe space - an actual, literally safe space as opposed to just protecting my ego - away from males?

Quote
The problem is (https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4170253-Anti-FGM-campaigner-Hibo-Wardere-comes-under-attack?pg=5) there is fundamental disconnect in how language is being used. You and I use it to make meaning clear, to communicate. The current identity movement use it to signal who is in and who is outside of the group. Which is quite ironic for a movement all about inclusion, but so much is. 

You read it all from a starting assumption that language is being used to clarify. But what you are actually reading is a number of language cues that indicate whether someone is a true believer, or maybe one of the sacred caste. The language shifts all the time because that's how they stay aware of the heretics, and how they constantly keep each other a little off-kilter, and thus easier to manipulate.

My relatively relaxed attitude to pronouns has taken a hit thank to Barra Kerr (https://fairplayforwomen.com/pronouns/) and Blibbyblobby [no, really]. Politeness still reigns, but it's a pretence that there's no cost.

(https://prettygoodbritain.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/blibbyblobby.gif)


Oh be nice. (https://www.harpersbazaar.com/culture/politics/a24109933/transgender-women-are-women-transgender-men-are-men/)

This just in:


"I am a woman and you are a scam."
Title: A room of their own
Post by: XY on April 30, 2021
Today is Alice B. Toklas's birthday – one of those people who never goes out without a middle initial. (Babette.) As I've not read Gertrude Stein, she's little more than a literary reference to me.

(https://i.imgur.com/t3dJGyE.jpg)
For god's sake man, pick up a book (https://www.brainpickings.org/2020/08/28/maira-kalman-the-autobiography-of-alice-b-toklas/)

According to this, (https://lux.lawrence.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1048&context=luhp) the sister was no mister. Gertrude, that is. I understand Alice had a bit of a mustache, which is only worth mentioning because secondary sex characteristics are one of the many #nuances of biology, (https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/sex-redefined-the-idea-of-2-sexes-is-overly-simplistic1/) a degree

(https://i.imgur.com/oQHUK2X.jpg)

in which is now required to advance to the current level of enlightenment (https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/voices/stop-using-phony-science-to-justify-transphobia/) superseding grade school notions of the birds and the bees.

I've been thinking about why trans activism interests me enough to have amassed an ever growing collection of links (here's another, and it's a monster (https://mforstater.medium.com/apologies-9ff54fb493c5)). It's an attempted coup on reality.

Quote
Denying material reality seems to be some kind of gateway drug, leading to wilder and wilder straying into the realms of incomprehensibility and wilful lack of comprehension. It’s the weirdest thing. (https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4229895-Lesbian-Visibility-Week?pg=20)

Quote
Women are adult human females. We do not believe (https://tinyurl.com/3k9sub2f) that men can become women by 'feeling' like women or 'identifying' as women. We condemn the erasure of females and female-only spaces, the silencing of critical thinking, the cancelling of feminists and critics, the denial of biological reality and of sex-based oppression. We oppose the 'cotton ceiling (https://lesbian-rights-nz.org/shame-receipts/)' and the pressure on lesbians to have sex with men. Women are oppressed to exploit their biological sex characteristics, and women have a right to a movement that is about their own liberation from that oppression. We resist the redefinition of both "women" and "feminism" to make them serve men.
– Ovarit (https://ovarit.com/o/GenderCritical/hot) [I've added the links]

People who insist, for example, that anyone (https://lesbianandgaynews.com/2021/04/jo-bartosch-on-the-disappointment-of-lesbian-visibility-week-it-seems-if-one-wants-to-take-part-acceptance-of-the-mainstream-line-on-trans-inclusion-must-now-be-performed-even-if-not-believed/) can be a lesbian (https://savageminds.substack.com/p/a-room-of-her-own), inspire the wrong kind of awe. Here's the right kind. (https://hiyamaya.files.wordpress.com/2021/04/forstater-eat-claimant-skeleton-argument-plus-low-res-pages-1-50.pdf)
Title: Clickme
Post by: XY on May 10, 2021
(https://i.imgur.com/CB7kJLR.jpg) (https://mobile.twitter.com/ai_valentin/status/1391225467689127939)

(https://i.imgur.com/tLPJq0v.jpg) (https://youtu.be/raDTn2TBCkc)

(https://i.imgur.com/86suPRB.jpg) (https://youtu.be/VlW4emNPrwM)
Title: Wise up
Post by: XY on May 12, 2021
Not all owls (https://twitter.com/UglaStefania/status/1389994537121112065) have it going on upstairs. I'll spare you the exploding head this time.

(https://i.imgur.com/guT4bCR.jpg)

My Gender is Uncertainty: My Mood is Anger. (https://medium.com/@kaicricketmoon/my-gender-is-uncertainty-my-mood-is-anger-b3321932b82f) I can't blame Medium for continuing to offer me these stories, because I keep reading them. "I didn’t ask for your reassurance; I wanted you to relate," says Kai Cricket Moon. Despite not being the right demographic I jumped into her archive, and was rewarded with some lovely writing from this "non-binary, they/them plant slut living in Vancouver." She's clearly traumatised and alienated from herself. Here's hoping she comes out of this mess a woman.

(https://i.imgur.com/nbZ43Ll.jpg)

The Annals of the TERF-Wars (https://janeclarejones.com/2018/11/13/the-annals-of-the-terf-wars/) was written in 2018, which came as a surprise, as it seems pretty up to date.



Great Pit of Carkoon. Don't fall in like I did!

100 Easy Ways to Make the World Better for Trans People
(https://www.vice.com/en/article/kzjnjm/how-to-be-trans-ally-tips)
1. Respect people's pronouns. This is really not very complicated! If someone tells you how they identify, you have no say on the matter. Use the pronouns they use.

I will use the pronouns that come naturally. You have no say in the matter.

2. Still on pronouns: if you don't know somebody's pronouns and want to get it right, either use gender neutral pronouns (i.e. they/them/their) or quietly and discreetly speak to the person and ask. Be aware of your surroundings and those around you before doing so—do not out this person or put them in an unsafe situation.

Kindly don't advocate putting other women in unsafe situations by insisting they deny reality. See Pronouns are Rohypnol. (https://fairplayforwomen.com/pronouns/)

3. Trans folk can use gender neutral pronouns, so please do not assume that we must adhere to a binary.

Binary is why you exist.

4. Try to start removing binary language from your everyday conversations. If we all make conscious efforts to steer away from gendering everything, this will have a knock-on effect that stops our learnt obsession of having to divide everything into binaries.

#FactsAreAnObsession

5. Trans women are women. This is not up for debate—so don't try to.

Men are not women (https://uncommongroundmedia.com/the-gender-cult-is-winning-the-war-of-language/) and women are not men.

6. Trans men exist! We are often overlooked or forgotten, so try to remind yourself that we are out here and can find the male cis world hard to navigate.

You mean women. Even women keen to erase themselves.

7. Call out transphobia WHEREVER you are! Even if a trans person is not present, be our defence. Hateful language perpetuates the dangerous cycle of violence.

Delusional language perpetuates and exacerbates further delusion. It is known.

8. Understand and be vocal that transphobia is never "funny," "in jest," or "banter."

Alas, you don't get to decide what's funny, either.


9. Don't refer to us as a whole. Do not make sweeping generalisations about every trans person. We are all individual people with different opinions.

Congratulations on being just like everyone else: an individual, with an opinion. Prone to hypocricy.

10. Reject the idea that transitioning looks like one thing. People wish to transition in various ways. If someone doesn't want to or can’t medically transition, this does not mean they are "less trans." There is no such thing as "less trans" or "more trans." This is a personal journey that doesn't need to tick any boxes in order for the transition to be validated—by anyone!

I imagine it can look like anything you want it to.

11. NEVER ask anything about our genitalia or body. "So… do you still have everything down there" as a puzzled hand flutters near our privates is not ever going to be OK. That is final.

Expect that if men want access to women's spaces, this is germane. Also, generally you're the one making a big deal about genitals.

12. Oh, let's not forget that we do not all know each other. The queer community is bigger than you think.

How do you know what I think? Have you audited my head? Read my blog? Interviewed my known associates?

13. Try to refrain from using language that is heavily influenced or derived from queer culture if this is not your community. Words and phrases are a way of communication in code for a large majority of the queer community (like "reading"). Language creates a dialogue within the queer community that is meant to protect and ensure safety.

Are there really 87 more of these?

14. Do not enter queer or trans safe spaces without a queer person asking you to be there or without making sure that allies are welcome.

If irony could kill, you would now be in a very unsafe space indeed.

15. When you are in queer spaces, repeat: "This is not my space, I will not fill it" and actually do what you say.

If I take up negative space will that be satisfactory?

16. Be aware of your hands. Do not touch people without consent in all spaces—and especially queer spaces—and especially avoid touching trans people who often are triggered by physical contact involving parts of their body.

I prefer not to be touched by strangers either, but unless it's sexual (as if) or a punch in the nose, I get over it. Everyone has boundaries. This has not been copyrighted by you.

17. If you are called out for being offensive, do not argue. This is not a debate. Apologise. Take a moment to reflect. If necessary, leave or give the space over to those you have offended or upset.

You really want to be in charge of the world.

18. Never try to argue with a trans person that something isn't transphobic.

#NoDebate. We get it.

19. Remind us that being trans isn't a burden or a bad thing!

Because you must get hoarse singing your own praises all the time.

20. Recognise the strength and power of your voice.

EVERYONE SHOUT LOUDER!

21. Now use it.

OK!

(https://i.imgur.com/kp3EHMI.jpg)

22. If a trans person is being verbally assaulted, made to feel unsafe or uncomfortable, or being attacked in any way and needs your help—open your mouth.

I'm going to file this with "Don't touch my girldick without asking."

23. This being said, do not become the ally that speaks over or for a trans person in this situation. Ask if we want you to step in because there's nothing more frustrating than cis person silencing you. It happens enough, jeez!

Jeezus christ.

24. Talk to us about more than gender! Movies, what we had for dinner, our next holiday—anything that isn't constant emotional labour.

Speaking of constant emotional labour.

25. Take us off your mood boards. Book us, pay us, and celebrate us.

Talk to HR, I'm sure there's an opening for another diversity consultant.

26. Do not fetishize trans folk. We are not your sexual experimentations, tokens, or reason to rebel against your parents. We are not here for you.

It's pretty clear you're there for yourself, Kai Isaiah-Jamal.

27. Criticise the media. Write to the newspapers, institutions, and publications that are spreading hate towards the trans community. Create polls and petitions. National news portrays us as monsters and threats to society. We can't stop them from doing that on our own.

Here there be monsters. (https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipOM9J_ZIrYtiMagVRr_jhagMR-XP59TBsJFLwNlcS13iIUT4ovqKRN9zttevr0PmA?pli=1&key=NmJuV1AyRnVSU3dOS2VObVhLSm1uNUkxRjRBSk9R)

28. Learn what Mx (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mx_(title)) means.

Can I just hover?

29. Talk to the generation above you—your parents, grandparents, aunts, and uncles. You can't always change traditional mindsets, but you can give them a new perspective.

It's great to talk to people, preferably without the goal of badgering them into a cult.

30. Support the generation below; speak to young kids. Make them aware that gender is a spectrum and they don't have to commit to one gender for their whole life. Educate them on their freedom and choices.

This be the verse (https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/48419/this-be-the-verse) you're looking for.

31. Don't buy gendered things for kids around you. This just pushes the ideas that boys must like blue and girls must like pink and only one of them can play football in their spare time. I don't even particularly like either colours!

I'll buy them what they like, if it's in my budget, which is quite low, so probably just a piece of string. They can learn how to untie knots, which is a life skill.

32. Stop pretending only trans people experience name changes or surgery. Me changing my name and a friend getting married and changing her surname meant we had to go through some similar legal process. Help trans folk with these legal procedures, whether that's telling us which bank is easy to change your name with or going through the deed poll process with us. It means it doesn't feel like these are "trans issues"—they're just really confusing forms that nobody quite understands!

This is really specific.
I think you're going to need a personal assistant.

33. Share your platforms. I am tired of cis people talking about trans health. Ask us to talk, educate, share our stories, and pay us. This way you don't get the credit for the lives we live.

By educate you mean thought control. Someone even wrote a song about it.

34. Support trans artists. Rock up to our exhibitions. Buy our books. Listen to our podcasts. Use your social platforms to share the incredible things we do despite the adversity we face.

So many buskers, so little discretionary income.

35. Don't expect trans folk to always congratulate you for being an ally. Sometimes you're just being a good person. I don't get a gold star for just being a good person.

Admit it: you want a gold star.

(https://prettygoodbritain.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/mestar.gif)

36. Donate to organizations and charities that are set up to aid and help trans folk. There are so many organisations struggling with funding. Without lots of these resources we can't access things like mental health services and free meet-ups.

There are doubtless people who will pay to be browbeaten, and more.

37. Do not tell us what RuPaul, Trump, or the Daily Mail said about us. Chances are we already know.

Cheer up, you get a lot of good press these days. In fact it's kind of hard to avoid having it shoved down our throats.

38. Post about the #blacktranslivesmatter campaign—highlight that trans people of color are targets of violence.

Yep, violence is bad.

39. If you are dating a trans person, try to understand their triggers. For example, me and my partner call my menstrual cycle "Lucifer." So if I text her to say "Lucifer is here," she knows to bring chocolate and pillows. You can also try covering tampon or pad boxes and wrapping with cute cartoons or their favourite colour.

What a coincidence! "Lucifer" is my safeword.

40. Do not tell us we "are playing the victim," WE ARE THE FUCKING VICTIM.

We are all just prisoners here, of our own device.

41. Do not attend panels that address gender and/or trans identity if everyone on the panel is cis.

How will I know?

42. Give trans creatives platforms to share work that aren't all about being trans.

But you're so good at it.

43. Do your research. For all ignorant questions, divert to Google. Google is your friend. I am not, especially if you're asking me how doctors make a penis from my leg.

You need new friends.

44. If trans folk do have to explain something to you that may be uncomfortable, triggering, or upsetting for us, buy us a bunch of flowers, take us for dinner, drop something into our PayPal. No labor should be free.

How many more times are you going to ask for money? Didn't Vice pay you for this?

(https://i.imgur.com/B9Lopme.jpg)

45. Transphobia is a huge issue in the queer community. Do not let other people who identify as queer get away with things, because they can be by far the worst.

If you want me to be your collaborator, you're going to have to pay me. A lot. Full disclosure: I'm going to be a double-agent.

46. Record transphobic incidents. (Caveat: This is only if your immediate assistance is not needed and you have checked you can use this footage by the person involved.) Share this with everyone you can. It may lead to prosecution or people in positions loosing their job. Nobody should still be allowed to be a CEO and use offensive slurs.

Feels like padding.

47. Don't question someone's religious beliefs because they are trans and you think they go against what it says in a holy book. This isn't your business, OK?

Say what you will about God, he knew to edit his commandments.

48. Trans issues are not for profit. That's it.

Better tell your compatriots with the merch.

49. "Queer" is not a theme. Do not have a "queer" house party and let boys who still use the word "faggot" wear your heels and dresses because it's fun.

Is it just me, or is this getting really nit-picky?

50. Drag queens are not always trans, but they can be—so respect that!

Not sure how wrong-footed I'm meant to be here.

51. Do not make someone feel bad after dragging you for something you have done that is deemed transphobic. Your guilt is not my guilt to feel.

We're either the deemed or the deemers.

52. Don't ask what gender dysphoria feels like because it’s a stupid question and there’s no way you can try to understand it.

I promise I won't try to touch the holy hem of your victimhood.

53. Ask your friends or trans folk you know if they'd like company when going to hospital appointments. Hospitals are scary at the best of times and sometimes you don’t always get the treatment, doctors, or results you want. Be there to give a hug, at least.

Hugs for everyone! With the proper consent forms filled out.

54. Do anything you can to stop trans exclusionary radical feminists (TERFs) from leaving stickers, leaflets etc. Tear down everything you see associated with them.

Because what we need is the right amount of freedom of speech, and no more.

55. Do not engage in question-based conversations with TERFs. You have nothing to learn from them.

Not a big fan of the Socratic method. Got it.

56. Correct others when they misgender people.

Could you write all this down in a little red book or something?

57. Gender and sexuality are not the same thing. Remember that at all times.

Have mercy, there are so many other things I'm trying to remember in my little man brain, this isn't always going to be at the forefront.

58. Do not ask a trans person’s partner what being in a relationship with a trans person "makes" them. It makes them in love, now fuck off.

Charmed I'm sure.

59. Trans Lives Matter should be more than a hashtag. Push it further than social media.

But social media is where this thrives. Out in the real world, eventually people hit the brick wall of reality.

60. Tell your trans friends and partners how great they look. Highlight the changes after hormones, surgery, or even just a good skin day.

Not to be mean, but this is usually a stretch.

61. You are not a true ally if you allow your partner to use transphobic language. Educate your friends and family.

Little red books for everybody!

62. Love your children regardless of what gender they identify as. Most self-hate for many trans folk comes from not being accepted at home.

I don't have kids, but I do have a rabbit who had his balls cut off, poor little guy. As for loving your kids, it's hard to disagree. You can love them best by educating them. We have different ideas about what constitutes an education.

63. Offer shelter, money, food etc. The basics of survival are hard for trans folk. If you have enough to spare, try to offer.

Just how much money do you need?

64. This is not a "phase." Do not tell me it is one.

You do sound pretty far gone. There's hope for others.

65. If your trans friend is leaving a social situation and feels uneasy about travel, offer to walk them to a train station and wait with them, drive them home, or get them a taxi. Travelling home alone by yourself can be a scary scenario.

It almost sounds as if you have sympathy for those who are predominantly the victims of violence.

66. Do not think you are saving us. We don’t need saving. You are helping us to have what everyone else has without having to ask for it.

You don't need saving, but you obviously need a cash infusion.

67. Be active about your allyship. Just saying you are an ally but not doing enough to actually make a change isn’t enough.

[Nobody mention cotton ceilings.]

68. Avoid gendered slang terms like "dude," "man," or "missy." For trans people, these too feel like misgendering.


69. Expand your knowledge of gender. For example, the Yoruba language is genderless. There is also a third gender in many spiritual philosophies.

For those of us not hung up on gender, this really isn't necessary.

70. Decolonize the way you think of gender. Remind yourself that these social constructs are postcolonial issues that the western world have pushed onto people.

You might be happier consorting with the Yoruba.

71. Be hyper aware of the systems that work against trans folk in issues like policing, housing, and health care.

Hyper? Really?

72. Offer to help go to health meetings and assessments. These spaces and the people within them can be very triggering and cause distress.

I'm calling duplicate.

73. Correct yourself if you accidentally misgender someone. It doesn't matter if it was an accident—it still hurts.

And again. Seriously, you could've made your points, dubious as they are, without this monster list. Sorry, was that monstering?

74. Make no excuses for others. No trans person wants to hear one of your friends say something offensive, only for you to say, "I've known them for ages, they don’t mean it like that."

Still not doing much to dissuade me that this is a cult.

75. Don't forget that racism is rife in the queer community and trans people of color are often the most vulnerable. Protect us.

Let us cut to the chase: you want me to lay down my life for you, apologising with my last breath that I couldn't do more.

76. Do not call yourself an ally if you do not believe in complete intersectionality. You be xenophobic and be an ally for trans folk. It doesn’t work like that, I'm afraid!

Fortunately I not be an ally.

77. Sex work is a service. Again, this is not up for debate. Do not try to stop trans folk from advocating for and implementing their own safety measures. Do not hide your prejudice against sex workers with fake worry.

WTAF.
I'm proud of myself for only saying that once.

78. Do not ask to try on or feel a strap-on, breast plate, or packer. These belong to us.

Lucifer!

79. Believe trans folk when they say they have been targeted. Recognize the hatred that is thrown at us from so many angles.

Paid by the word. I respect that.

80. Read Charlie Craggs' To My Trans Sisters, Juno Dawson's The Gender Games, C Riley Snorton’s Black on Both Sides, and Travis Alabanza’s Before I Step Outside (You Love Me).

I'll add it to the list. (https://jollygoodthen-75205.medium.com/books-i-havent-read-ca65b9f5c271)

81. Relearn there is no universal trans experience. Not all of us go through the same things—we are all shaped by our varying lives.

It just goes on and on and on.

82. Share our work. Often our talents are overlooked based on our gender identity.

Look – I'm sharing.

83. Step down. Take up less space. If you are asked to do or take about something that you think your trans friend, partner, or coworker is more qualified for. Give our names.

Should I see an advertisement for a compiler of epic bullshit lists, I'll forward your name.

84. Love us and see us as human beings. After all, that's what we are!

Again, welcome to the club.

85. Watch Pose, Paris is Burning, Tomboy, Tangerine.

Are they on Netflix? Am I bothered enough to check? Will have to get back to you on that.

86. Learn the correct terminology. Instead of saying "when you were a girl/a boy" say "your assigned gender at birth."

Will our robot overlords be programmed with gender, I wonder?

87. "Transgenders" is not a thing. We do not fall under one group. Never say that.

I'll promise to never make a typo if you also promise. Oh, I see what you mean. Well, I've never said that, and am not likely to. You, on the other hand, have shown a willingness to shove people you disagree with into monolithic groups. Please work on that. Do better.

88. Fight for our rights. Block and report pages or people spreading hate, too.

Now if only we could all agree on what constitutes hate.

89. Help to introduce gender neutral bathrooms. They should be way more common. Ask for them at work, cafes, bars, and venues.

If you truly care about people other than yourself, you'll be sensitive to their needs, too. Judging by your picture, I'd say you can get away with using the bathroom of your choice. Go for it.

Btw, I like that gap in your two front teeth. I've also got one. Dare I say, mine's bigger than yours.

90. If somebody who is trans asks you to go to the bathroom with them, go. This can be a very unsafe space for us.

Your enemies are legion. I almost forgot for a minute.


91. Pride is not for you to get drunk and smear glitter on your face. Respect that this is not your space.

Have you always been this controlling? Have you considered a career on the staff of a dictator?

92. Trans-only groups are there for a reason. These are also not your spaces.

Look no further: this is the definition of gall.

93. Your curiosity does not come before our comfort. Don't expect answers and labor.

If you really don't want to talk, I'm hardly going to bring out the waterboard.

94. Saying "I do not see gender" is hella problematic. We don't need another way to be erased.

Does all the policing ever get tiring?

95. Don't assume anything about gender dysphoria. Not everyone experiences it and not everyone experiences it in the same way. People navigate it with different coping mechanisms.

Thanks for another reminder that people are different. It's so easy to forget.

96. Do not deny your privilege. If you tell me that being a cis heterosexual white man doesn’t mean you haven't "had it rough," I will tell you that you are wrong.

There'll be no taking the fifth (https://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/I+take+the+Fifth) in kangaroo court.

(https://i.imgur.com/RedYYYK.jpg)

97. I also am not playing Top Trumps with you. Don’t try to top my experience.

You like playing with yourself too much for me to want to interfere. I can almost empathise.

98. Not everything needs labels. As my grandmother would say: "Baby, some things just be as they be."

Your grandmother was a woman, right? Can we agree on that?

99. Intimacy can be even more complicated for some trans folk. Respect boundaries and ways people feel comfortable with nudity, tactility, and sex. This may mean being patient or unlearning what we deem as 'sex'.

Not sure I want to go there.

100. Find your own ways to disrupt the cis world. There are so many ways to do this.

To put this in terms you're most likely to understand, your validation appears to depend on invalidating other people. Didn’t you kick this off with the following?

Quote
Here are 100 ways that cis allies can help us.

You're confusing me, which I appreciate is a feature and not a bug. It's unclear if the cis are meant to be allies or enemies. Frenemies?

Are we done here?
Title: Re: TWAM
Post by: Humbug on May 15, 2021
Their time will come

Do not speak to the driver or obscure their vision
when the bus is moving.
From Shelley to Bowie - it's all been done before.
Blakey was a blokey.

Oh the curse of gender - they cures me of it.
Not that I was ever ill.
Title: Happy birthday to me
Post by: Millicent Fawcett on June 11, 2021
I've come a long way to spin in my grave: An Open Letter to the Fawcett Society (https://daveward.substack.com/p/an-open-letter-to-the-fawcett-society)

(https://i.imgur.com/SMwW0Ja.jpg)
alternate caption (https://i.imgur.com/lMXCgVg.jpg)

So also: Pride (https://www.feministcurrent.com/2021/06/12/pride-month-is-no-longer-a-joyful-celebration-but-a-symbol-of-something-dark/)
Title: Beyond belief
Post by: Ovaheard on June 11, 2021
Quote
Here are some clarifications (https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4267342-Its-important-to-emphasise-that-the-ruling-does-NOT-give-Maya-Forstater-the-right-to) trending on Twitter! (https://twitter.com/Muttmere1/status/1403132172941340679)

- It's important to emphasise that the ruling does NOT give Maya Forstater (https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/forstater-judgment-what-next-peter-daly) the right to put the ram in the rama lama ding dong

- It's important to emphasise that the ruling does NOT give Maya Forstater the right to take all the best chips off your plate

- It's important to emphasise that this does NOT give Maya Forstater the right to walk behind you shouting, 'Left! Right! Left! Right!'"

- It's important to emphasise that the ruling does NOT give Maya Forstater the right to break into a museum and draw moustaches on all portraits

- It's important to emphasise that the ruling does NOT give Maya Forstater the right to redecorate your house if she doesn't like your wallpaper

- It's important to emphasise that the ruling does NOT give Maya Forstater the right to make rabbit ears behind you during a group photo

- It's important to emphasise that the ruling does NOT give Maya Forstater the right to give away the ending of a novel just when you've started reading it

- It's important to emphasise that the ruling does NOT give Maya Forstater the right to use '10 items or less' when she really means 'fewer'

- It's important to emphasise that the ruling does NOT give Maya Forstater the right to split infinitives, misuse apostrophes, or do anything else to piss off the other L. Truss

- It's important to emphasise that the ruling does NOT give Maya Forstater the right to poke a badger with a spoon

- It is important to emphasise that the ruling does NOT give Maya Forstater the right to eat egg sandwiches and crisps noisily in the quiet carriage of a train on a hot summer's day

- It is important to emphasise that the ruling does NOT give Maya Forstater the right to punch all the cakes in the supermarket and run away

- It's important to emphasise that the ruling does NOT give Maya Forstater the right to use "staycation" when what she really means is a perfectly ordinary holiday within the UK

- It's important to emphasise that the ruling does NOT give Maya Forstater the right to park on the zigzags at school pickup time, and say, "it's ok, I’ve got my hazards on"

- It's important to emphasise that the ruling does NOT give Maya Forstater the right to put empty milk carton back in the fridge

- It's important to emphasise that the ruling does NOT give Maya Forstater the right to keep tickling the Dalai Lama long after he's begged her to stop

- It's important to emphasise that the ruling does NOT give Maya Forstater the right to look up a Scotsman's kilt

- The ruling does NOT give Maya Forstater the right to steal your bicycle and run down Owen Jones with it


- It's important to emphasise that the ruling does NOT give Maya Forstater the right to dress Owen Jones up as an elf, (https://genderheretics.org/index.php/2021/06/07/just-be-yourself-in-your-body/) and pop him on her mantelpiece at Christmastime

This will be decided on at the tribunal.
Title: Re: TWAM
Post by: Humbug on June 18, 2021
In between

Did you need to make 100 replies?
Some so clever, some so snide
We are becoming infantile
If this is how we ride

#69 was not required?
Since childhood she's been wired
For 'they' to be adopted
As the wild card word

Language makes us think
it's a road with kinks
Built in. Let's not be stilted
But please let's lilt it

Shape of mind, words we find
Crafted lines defined
To answer every blind error
With more and better

Rabbits have 3 kinds you know
In between as well as buck and doe
For the human few with this state too
It was just cut right through

Belonging to this or that
Is a false comfort  - you twat!
You are offended - so counter
With borrowed toilet humour

You dip my logic and emotion
Into a flaming filthy ocean
If you can't make a good point
Without leaning to affront


Title: A reply
Post by: a muse on June 19, 2021
Affrontery or effrontery
is my first thought
eh.

Snide does not sound great
any way you cut it
words mean things, different things
slyly disparaging is apt in this case
I thought the list of little worth
but clearly worth enough
for the challenge of point by point
firstish thing that came to mind
not all Worthy, but all honest
part Rorschach
you have made of it and me what you will
fair enough.

Of gender I have been swimming in other people's thoughts
my own are these:
I am sam I am


I like this name (https://prettygoodbritain.com/wp/?p=5821) in part because it is either
(it was chosen for me by a woman not my mother)
I am a man but not bothered
even while being bothered;
fucking with reality bothers me
nastiness by nasty people bothers me
æffrontery is a case-by-case basis
life is too brutally short in my book
for hackles so easily tickled to attention
but we've all got our own hackles
to deal with.

Twat tossed at whomever
doesn't elevate the bar.
For example.

I like your honesty (https://www.notanothercyclingforum.net/index.php?topic=2264.msg12522#msg12522).

Shall I admit
your poem went right by me
on first reading
(my pleasure at a contribution
temporarily blinding me to the actual contribution)?
Is that sort of honesty
Helpful or Hindrance?
H1: "In wot universe."
H2: "The defense rests."
- Doesn't everyone have a constant courtroom in their head?
A battle of wit against dimwit, the bicameral mind
fully realised?


The company has been nice
long solitude has inoculated me to losing it
(sez the drama queen in me)
fingers crossed not
but landmines I can do without.
Accommodation can be made
mutually
we'll see what we see.
I'm out here for all to see
bit by byte by bit by bite
more all the time
it could be landmines remain for you
blowing all to smithereens retroactively
all part of the getting to know you phase
ongoing
?

Give me 10 minutes and I'll come up with 10 different endings
This will do for now
Only locked in on reply
If.
Title: Re: TWAM
Post by: Ernestine on June 19, 2021
Well hello.

I am Humbug's P.A. and thought it would be a little off to embark on prose debate here in his name.

I came rather late to the web arena - really only got hooked up in 2008 - and even later to its twisted paths of gender identity crises. I only started to seek and respond to the topic online after someone I knew began to transition. I talked with good people about my and other perspectives on this life-changing process before ever coming out virtually. This is important I think. Though some of us still hold different views we did find some synthesis or at least understanding, and are still talking.

The web is a very different set of beasts though. The idea I wanted to express is that I early (before the age of 5) concluded that gender is a social construct and decided that I wanted no part of its building. It seemed obvious to me that 'girlish' or 'boyish' stereotypes were holding back everyone from women engineers to men childcarers. Being an androgenous person I naturally felt some solidarity with hermaphrodite people (as known then - now we would say intersex, though this doesn't quite express the full 'both sexes' meaning) and felt and still feel that we need the pronoun 'they' not only for people of neither or both sexes but also for changing in as organic way as possible the language of gender distinction - hence Humbug's line, 'Do not speak to the driver or obscure their vision.' I learned to read largely from notices on buses and the sides of breakfast cereal packets, and this was my hoped for edit to the usual sexist script both for realism and simplicity.

I am now called a 'cis' woman, and am told to accept this even though I have no particular gender characteristics, which I find contradictory. I engaged with libertarian socialists on a global discussion forum and with bloggers - both trans-activists and feminists who were to varying degrees trans-exclusionary about this problem of definition. Nowhere did I find a debate that did not descend towards farce. Feminists have offended trans people, some trans people have responded with further nastiness, petulance has appeared on all sides and the whole thing has become pitiful.

There is much of interest in this forum. I am particularly impressed by the Barra Kerr piece. Maya Forstater's case is an imporrtant one and the 'Open Letter to the Fawcett Society' is valuable reading.

However posting very low-grade videos lampooning Owen Jones or Eddie Izzard is indulgent in a way that defuses the strengths of the good points made. I think I read somewhere that the editor is not a proponent of memes - moving-picture memes are no step up.

Affrontery is deliberate, effrontery is shameless offence.

I asked a couple of things in a private message and got answers that welcomed my dissent but didn't answer the questions - so,

Could you please take more care to critique without the descent towards antagonism (dis)courtesy(sic) of youtube? I can tolerate a bit of farce but would really enjoy intelligence worthy of inviting my friends to share.

Do you think there is a case for 'they' as a gender-free pronoun, or will you dismiss it along with the list of more artificial he/she alternatives? Conveying plurality is even rather apt with 'they' and it is already a term in common parlance.

If my use via Humbug of 'twat' in a poem offended you I apologise. I do feel, perhaps erroneously, that poetic license is a bigger thing than youtube parody rights. Please think of it as a acronym.
Title: Re: TWAM
Post by: sam on June 19, 2021
They say nature abhors a vacuum, though birthday boy Blaise Pascal had contrary words on the subject. There is a need for contemplative essays, peer-reviewed studies, and no-holds-barred lampooning, all. I feel surprisingly strongly about the latter: just as fiction can touch truths non-fiction can't reach, so can the apparently unserious unsettle serious falsehoods.

I’d agree that an argument based on memes is not the bedrock of a solid discussion. Then again, at some point I stopped reckoning on having any discussions here. Thus the state of this thread, a magpie’s collection of conversation starters including videos. Self-indulgence is certainly a risk in such an environment. Without delving into specifics, I think reasonable people can come to different conclusions as to their merit. That said, it is helpful to know what to avoid in conversations you may start.

(I'm not aware of having taken a particular stand against memes (https://prettygoodbritain.com/wp/?p=2694) unless drive-by eye-rolling (https://prettygoodbritain.com/wp/?p=4608) at the saccharin counts, though am happy to be corrected. Likes and bountiful smileys on the other hand…

(https://prettygoodbritain.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/likegun425.jpg)

The only thing that distinguishes some of what I get up to from memehood is lack of wide circulation.)

Then there’s TWAT. Back in junior high I took a French class, and with it a Frenchie name: Antoine. Thanks to a bully this quickly turned into Antwat. I can still remember the look on my father's face when I told him, dewily innocent of TWATs and perhaps thinking the nickname a softening in the bully’s treatment of me. A lifelong aversion could’ve been born then and there, but I actually am not at all offended; I also use it on occasion, (https://www.notanothercyclingforum.net/index.php?topic=2008.msg12802#msg12802) when absolutely necessary.

It’s not in my nature to deliberately offend those undeserving of it, but as you know, offence happens. (https://prettygoodbritain.com/wp/?p=5021) It isn't something I could start apologising for as there would be no end, or promise to studiously avoid as a beginning. I can only trust that people look at me, at context, back at me (https://www.notanothercyclingforum.net/acf/index.php?topic=53068.0) if necessary, and credit me with a heart.

Thanks for sharing your story with a fellow cereal (https://twitter.com/jollygoodthen/status/545712073385459712) box consumer, which is not to diminish any additional burdens you may have had (it's unclear to me). You were much more aware of gender than I was at such a tender age.

I don't accept 'cis' either, perhaps for different reasons than you. To me it is terminology from a religion to which I do not subscribe.

My own relationships have not fallen into the standard male/female divide in that I've never been close to my tribe of males. As a teenager I took to hanging out with the girls. Playing clarinet in band further ensured this would happen. (Woody Allen et al never came up.) One of my defining crisis was when I was set before a tribunal of sorts and judged as effeminate, or at the very least weird, and cast out of the company of the very girls I admired.

As a young man I moved from rural Ohio to NYC and found myself pursued in a way I didn't then find flattering. A small town boy in Greenwich Village with hetero tastes can very easily skirt homophobia and worse. Let's just say it was a close-run thing. I'm a big believer in learning from mistakes (preferably the mistakes of others).

Later I was to marry a woman with a traditionally male vocation, though anyone who knows the history of computing will be aware women were in it (https://www.notanothercyclingforum.net/index.php?topic=2008.msg11229#msg11229) from the get-go. Over the years she was frequently the only female in the room.

Although our relationship isn't what I would classify as far outside norms, nor has it been entirely traditional.

Even my pandemic moptop [RIP] brought back an old preference. Fortunately we're past the silliness slightly before my era of dibs on long hair. The coiffeur who recently lopped it off triggered my own unease by saying it was proper rock star hair. Blame summer and too much of a good thing constantly getting in my eyes. (https://youtu.be/GQQbjpomexo)

(https://prettygoodbritain.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/dasher.jpg)

I don't know to what extent my experiences shaped my current view on the gender wars. It stands to reason they did.

It sounds as if you have much more real life experience navigating these waters, and I respect that. I would, however, dispute that the two ‘sides’ are even roughly equivalent in the nastiness meted out, at least online.

There is a desperate need for well run salons. Mumsnet, which at times I have outright loathed and still mostly regard as not far short of malign as a tool of conformity and outlet for simmering aggression (as a counterpoint to its motherload of useful experience to draw upon), has in its feminist board hosted more than a few discussions of a quality that have left me awestruck; so much so that it almost seems pointless to keep casting about for more and better. Still, better is surely possible, not least because their moderation can be bewildering, and anyone beholden to advertisers is already compromised.

I would love to host thoughtful discussions here, but the prospect is unlikely at best, even were you to give me a passing grade to your friends.

I can appreciate not wanting to be placed in a gender box, and as a default he, have personally suffered no linguistic unease. Do I think there is a case for ‘they’ as a gender-free pronoun? I suppose it depends how awkward the construction, and the situation. I don’t believe language can or should be compelled, however compelling the argument, absent a much stronger case of harm to a great number of people.

Notwithstanding what I would maintain is an unearned reputation for pugnacity (how often the one in the middle of a brawl is not the true offender), and a voracious appetite for hoovering up then emptying bags of links and quotes and memes of sufficient variety to confound anyone trying to get an exact bead on my taste, as mentioned upthread I do value civility. As I hope I’ve proved by now.

colophon
A flaw in my process* often renders me unable to post without a host of further edits as I continue to examine the angles and interrogate myself about my own truthfulness. Eventually this settles down; it definitely stops if there's a reply except for clarification or grammar or harmless flourish. The nature of this site means it's not traditionally been a problem in the slightest. Should that change, I'll try my best to move on after the final full stop.

My most common name for TextEdit files is Edit, followed by enlightening labels such as Further Edit, Final?, Final final, etc. This very 'colophon' will cease to exist if my last judgement is a resounding "Nobody cares, sam."

(https://prettygoodbritain.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/penciltop.gif)

*This was first posted at approximately 23.50 last night, after starting in a notebook in a Sainsbury's parking lot in the early afternoon. Here it is 8.31 the morning after and I'm still whittling. I admire people who get it exactly right the first time, assuming they exist.
[close]
Title: Re: TWAM
Post by: Ernestine on June 20, 2021
I haven't broached this subject online in a long time. My previous efforts were not very positive experiences, but I am trying again. Yesterday I feared to have settled for farce. I am really sorry on many levels that my efforts have been clumsy so far - I suppose emotion has clouded my reactions. Hopefully interesting denouement is still out there somewhere.

By the way, Ernestine is one of my names. It is the handle I have used on libcom.org to discuss gender issues amongst other things, and it implies getting serious, so I thought it honest enough to use it here, but you know my other names so I guess I should have mentioned this more explicitly.

Poetry seems again to be the way I have expressed my gist more effectively than prose, perhaps unsurprisingly. I didn't intend a nasty insult with the word 'twat' - in my world it is a fairly gentle word to use with folk on familiar terms. You and I have talked already about many things with humour and felt some common ground so I thought you would take it with light affection, cutting both ways, rather than as a pejorative term.

Also please pardon me for the potted definitions of a/effrontery. I had had to look them up and this was more for my own and perhaps the wider audience's regard.

It is usually difficult to be honest and entirely courteous simultaneously.

Talking amongst people who simply agree is ultimately less satisfactory than ironing out or defining differences. You have spent a lot of time on the gender business - thanks, and let's spend a little more.

The Maya Fortsater ruling has cleared some air, and if I don't say what I think and believe about all this and just stick to less controversial matters then I reckon it would be a cop out. My views on gender transitioning put me beyond the pale in righteous left circles. I grew up and was brought up so nicely in some respects that the stick I got from peers at school and the imagery of marketing didn't inflict me with gender dysphoria. If I blame society for the phenomenon, which I do, I now find myself shot by both sides.

I am conscious that in my last post I described myself as an androgenous person rather than an androgenous woman. I wrote 'woman' first, but edited that because my sex is irrelevant to issue of hermaphrodite people being forced to become male or female. (The one hermaphrodite person I have met specifically describes themself as hermaphrodite by choice. I am aware that the radical left prefers the term intersex.) I prefer to avoid gendered language where feasible. I believe that it has a lot to answer for. Language changes slowly whatever we say. I see good in finding better words.

I am astonished that so many young people prefer to change their bodies, even to the extent of gonad removal, in order to fit an idea of gender. I believe gender is largely a set of ideas. Perhaps for some they are such important ideas that the alteration of physical self is the only way to go.

I hope this forum is a safe enough space to say that I think this is tragic. I'd rather change the world. I hope it's also a safe enough space to say I can't blithely post other, hopefully funnier stuff, when I find some of the stuff here overhits the mark. I still reckon it is a shame to muddy it up with cheaper digs and I feel honour bound to comment on this. It is such cattiness of the virtual fisticuffs between radical feminists and trans-activists that has brought the politics of gender to a place where debate is often futile. Apportioning blame then becomes an end in itself. I have made too many silly but hurtful playground jibes online myself, and I am trying to give that up. I don't want debate to be futile. I like debate and I like the possibility of developing a world where gender really doesn't matter that much.


Title: Re: TWAM
Post by: Humbug on June 20, 2021
Ooh la la!

By the way Sam I am, fank you fer the luvverly email pictcher ov the frog, even if it wos a toad. It as got me waxin a bit lyrical innit.

Modern Times

Birf control in the water
Babies in the jug
Men in tights
Girls in fights
and bugs under the rug
Title: Safe
Post by: sam on June 20, 2021
You're not the only one who had to look up affrontery. I knew what it meant, more or less, but was unclear on the spelling (as usual). There are plenty of references to it being obsolete, which doesn't much help as olde wordes lodge in the head just as readily as their replacements.

It’s difficult for me to write in a serious vein, which is why I avoid it when possible. It takes forever to say what I want to, what with all the erasing and sighing and mental pacing back and forth, and in the end it often seems like far too many words no matter how many I cut, as more rush in to help coagulate the wound.

I’m glad you’re here and talking, raising the bar for this thread. For what it's worth you’ve also played a role in my ongoing effort to rehabilitate myself from shirker or at least lamenter of any sort of confrontation, to an optimist gearing up for genuinely constructive dialogue, part of the reconstruction being on my own edifice. “Why can’t we all just get along” has long been my plaint, there being no sin in such naivety if it’s for a good cause.

Speaking of which, "I see good in finding better words" is something I can get behind, even if I'm less than enthusiastic about using They for everyone until and even after you see their true selves (that's not a dig).

I very much want this to be a safe space, (https://www.notanothercyclingforum.net/index.php?topic=2616.0) and not just for me. My definition of that isn't an absence of, to use a popular word, triggers, or unpleasant or disturbing concepts, but a sincere striving for integrity. It includes the freedom to be offensive, as long as it's not merely another arrow for the bows of what are still almost charmingly called trolls.

I am aware of no safe spaces outside of the dubious comforts of a clique. Every single place I've been has had problems that made them, to me at least, ultimately uninhabitable. (https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/cc-10-things-great-about-you.181614/) Mumsnet is a good example. The user is first and foremost part of a vast content machine to funnel ad revenue to Justine.

Then there's Ovarit, which I started referencing not long ago. It's a handy resource. While blessedly free of the sort of disingenuous posters who frequently assault Mumsnet Towers, it goes too far into, well, farce.

Recently someone posted that they wished men simply didn't exist, which stood without rebuttal the last I saw. I can handle that, and might have even enjoyed coming up with a reply were I a member (taking care as it may have come from a place of sexual violence), but their definition of safe space is, as far as I can tell, exclusively female. That's their prerogative and I don't mind one way or the other; my stance on the right of women and men to have their own spaces pretty much demands they be allowed that. But it serves as yet another example of a site that falls short. Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good, I know…

Ernestine, there is so much more to talk about, and I welcome anyone you care to bring into this and other conversations, especially as it may help take the heat off me to keep taxing my brain; as you can probably guess, I'd rather be captioning and making paper aeroplanes for flights of fancy. Humbug, I’m fresh out of amphibians, so here’s a squirrel I saw earlier today. My stance on them (“crazy bastards”) has softened. We're all just trying to get by as best as we can in this world.

(https://i.imgur.com/MtEFBaE.jpg)
Title: Re: TWAM
Post by: Ernestine on June 21, 2021
I too have trouble with prose these days. I read some pieces from my University days recently and was struck by my former succinctness. I seldom achieve that now - there are so many caveats, word-fails, and possible assumptions to pre-empt online that I tend to go round the houses and end up back home with a nice cuppa instead. Still seeking more spaces between academia and quip.

Thinking about safe spaces I remember when I was a new parent and young musician. There was encouragement in the air for women to develop musical talent without sexist surroundings. Hence 'women only' workshops, with creche, yeah! But it was unsatisfactory for me. I am not arguing against the need for same sex safe spaces where these are vital, as they can be. There is sex underlying much music. What we ultimately needed was for men and women to play together without nastiness, plus creche very possibly. I hear this happening more and more now, so there is hope. Skateboarding has also made huge woman strides. Neither music or skateboarding could thrive in a universe without occaisional offence -

I agree about
Quote
a safe space, and not just for me. My definition of that isn't an absence of, to use a popular word, triggers, or unpleasant or disturbing concepts, but a sincere striving for integrity. It includes the freedom to be offensive, but...

The internet as it stands - riddled not only with advertising but also with its market research feedback loop - must not become the default medium. This is what is perhaps the most dangerous aspect of our response to covid.

I stumbled on this thread having first met Chompsky on another. If people I know do the same or similar I will not be embarrassed.
Title: Re: TWAM
Post by: sam on June 22, 2021
I do wonder how I'd feel if I knew and cared for someone convinced they're the sex they're not. God knows it's easy to take a firm line online, but face to face?

Mostly agree about the dangers of the internet becoming the default medium (though it would be interesting if you expanded on that). It's safe to say it eventually became so for me after a friend introduced us in the late 90s. I have often thought of myself as the closest thing to a hermit that a person who enjoys being out in the world on his bike can be.

However, I have also taken pleasure in meeting new people since covid started shutting doors.

Ciao (https://www.notanothercyclingforum.net/index.php?topic=2562.0)
Heaven and hell (https://prettygoodbritain.com/wp/?p=10253)
Close encounters (https://www.notanothercyclingforum.net/index.php?topic=3321.msg13360#msg13360)

In my case it's not really the pandemic which has seemingly handed me the keys, but the latest in a lifelong series of mood swings which renders me alternately capable of company, and almost horrified of it.

I read some pieces from my University days recently and was struck by my former succinctness.

Amazing how much you know when you're younger, which can make it easier to be succinct.

More spaces between academia and quip sounds good.
Title: Re: TWAM
Post by: Ernestine on June 26, 2021
I am ashamed for this world and for what became of feminism that gender has become bigger when it should have been falling off the map.

From this,

(https://media4.popsugar-assets.com/files/2014/11/24/753/n/1922507/5304493b143b9e61_lego-ad.xxxlarge_2x.jpg)

to what?

To any feminists or trans-activists who may or may not be reading this - whatever your stand on trans issues - The process is the product. The medium is the message. You are giving power to market forces by campaigning via their channels.

I have been guilty of omission - lack of response to the misdirection of the womens' liberation movement into something more contrived, that which then allowed the media to lampoon and discredit it. I fell from my disgrace by defending Julie Burchill online for her support of her friend who had been vilified and threatened by a trans caucus. My attempting this Voltairian task rebounded with evidence that nowadays conclusions come first and reasoning a poor second. I then realised that as a time-to-time teacher I hadn't been half aware enough of the behaviourist culture creeping into primary education - this which I more or less hold responsible for the 'likey likey' nature of social media.

Where does Search Engine Optimisation come from? Can we abort it poet-partum?
Title: Re: TWAM
Post by: Humbug on June 26, 2021
I dug this out ov yer © vault Ernie,

The Cookie Crumbles

The war beyond war
is a secret affair
so many like and share

It'll eat you under the table, see
meet your beat to the nth degree
wipe its lips on your cv

Title: Re: TWAM
Post by: david on June 29, 2021
Transspotting I recall when Rachel Riley put up the 8-letter word TRANNIES on the Countdown board.  I had never heard the word before (this was about 10 years ago – I think Nick Hewer was on his first day as host).  It seemed a rather quaint, endearing term your gran might use for men who enjoy dressing up in women's clothing (NOT dressing up as women, mind you, but as men dressed as women – think pepperpots).

We're (or at least I'm) not talking about drag queens, of which less said the merrier.  So, whatever happened to transvestites?  The female butch sort have been with us since Beowolf beat Grendel.  Every school had at least one.  And, less to the point, whatever happened to hermaphrodites? 

Trainspotting We all know that 'trans' means 'across' and 'cis' means 'smile for the camera', if you live where I do (Swiss cis, anyone?).  And it also means 'this side of'.  Until you take the train called the Cisalpino, in which you travel across the Alps.  Heaven only knows what a return ticket is called.  Round trip is certainly a circumalpino.  But, as sam has already said, I've no skin in this game. 

Trendspotting As Christine Keeler once said to me — Wait!  Delete that!  Start over.  (I'll save my dalliance with Miss Keeler for another day.)  As Christine Jorgensen once said to me, "I don't like it hot."  This is absolutely true.  I was cooking at the hotel where she was staying during a lecture tour of university campuses, and she came to the kitchen to speak to the chef.  "I thought I'd just pop back here to talk with you a while."

That was what led to a thirty-minute conversation I had with the 'notorious' transsexual of my generation.  She was writing a Scandinavian cookbook (perpetually, it turned out) and enjoyed talking with restaurant and hotel cooks.  She had an hour or two before she needed to get ready for her lecture, and if she wasn't eating early, she was eating late.  "But cook it a good half hour ahead of time.  I love hot food cooled down and cold food warmed up.  Room temperature is the objective."

We spoke of her tour.  I told her I'd not be able to hear her deliver her talk, so she covered what she thought I'd like to hear.  I don't know how she knew, but she was spot-on in her comments to me.  This was in the early-mid 1970s, and students those days were glad to be challenged by the new and the exciting.  Edward Teller was another controversial speaker I cooked for, but our orbits did not intersect.

Christine Jorgensen would have been de-platformed these days, to ensure she didn't spread word of her own experiences, which would contradict today's orthodoxy.  We spoke of George, her persona before the operations.  "We were never different people.  I'm still the same person George was.  You cannot change a person on the inside by changing the outside."

She mentioned her sister.  "We get along better now as sisters than we did as brother and sister.  My parents and I get along better now, as well."

Back to food – well, we never got back to food, except for preparing her early dinner.  As I recall, she wanted a beef sirloin steak grilled medium rare, then cooled, of course.  She probably had a salad with that and some rice.  She did say she liked the way rice cools down so fast.

Miss Jorgensen has the final word.  "Give everything time to develop its natural flavour," she told me.  Yes, indeed, with food and with life.

Title: Chiral
Post by: XY on July 10, 2021
(https://i.imgur.com/85vt7ed.jpg)
image search: Vertigo (https://www.pinterest.co.uk/pin/377669118743700133/)

Benign Paroxysmal Positional Vertigo has felled me again. I'm currently reading and typing on a laptop with the both of us tipped onto our right side, which besides having the advantage of quelling my nausea, makes it easier to curl into a fetal position. This is the classic position for someone who, pardon my hyperbole, just wants to die. I don't want to die. I just want everything to stop spinning.

We continue this thread with DeRigueurMortis, (https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4292483-to-NOT-think-womens-rights-are-being-attacked?pg=20) from Witchesnet (https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4267555-Bunburys-Thirteenth-edition-unlucky-for-some) Mumsnet:

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What is it to be a woman?

I don't wake up thinking I feel like a woman today.

I'm just me.

That said I've lived a life that's been defined by my sex.

I wasn't seriously sexually assaulted at 17 by a man because of my gender identity. I was deliberately targeted because of my sex.

I couldn't "opt out" and not feel like a woman on the last day of my Uni finals because I had the period from hell and spent 3 hours with blood stained jeans after trying to answer questions with severe cramps.

I did succeed in my career in a male dominated industry only to find I was still expected to "take notes" and "play hostess's" even when more junior employees (men) were present.

I gave birth and suffered serious tearing which a male doctor thought "insignificant". Having insisted on being examined by a female doctor I was referred for surgery.

I had my coil replaced with no anaesthetic and passed out screaming in pain as the old one was removed only to come round and find a new one had been inserted (that I would not have consented to) and then bled for 3 weeks.

I've spent thousands of pounds over the years on sanitary protection and pain relief.

Going through peri right now and I've had to fight tooth and nail with my male GP to get HRT. Apparently I'm expected to deal with night sweats that mean I average 4 hours sleep and have to be in the spare bedroom so I don't disturb DH as well as myself.

I don't feel like a woman.

I am one.

No trans woman can ever have these experiences.

They have a notion, a concept about being female is that is mostly rooted in the most inconsequential aspects of women's lives such a lipstick and clothing.

I, like most women I think, spend relatively little mental energy on such matters in comparison to how much I expend on being safe and looking after/worrying about my health in relation specifically to my female anatomy (checking for breast lumps, attending smear tests etc).

Yet these experiences are apparently nothing.

Because men can be women.

They can take away the very word and definition of what a female is.

That's the biggest fucking steal in history and I'm not having it.

Her post made me think of Clare Flourish. (https://www.notanothercyclingforum.net/index.php?topic=2264.msg12646#msg12646) Unless Clare has upped Clare's game considerably since my last visit, I can't see Clare lasting 5 minutes in a fair discussion with people who have their critical faculties engaged. However, Clare* would fit right in at the editorial board of the Los Angeles Times: (https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2021-07-06/editorial-transgender-spa-customers-have-the-same-rights-as-everyone-else)

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There is no doubt that Wi Spa did the right thing in defending the right of a transgender customer to be nude in the women’s area, even though the sight of male-appearing genitalia discomfited at least one female customer, who complained at the front desk.

"Male-appearing genitalia". Let that soak in. And this, a tweet which will live in infamy: (https://twitter.com/PennyRed/status/1409790944635883523)

(https://i.imgur.com/zqqqwXa.jpg)

Less infamous but disturbing in its own way (https://mobile.twitter.com/ruthserwotka/status/1412321498870816768) (note this is unrelated to the bad Penny hot take above):

(https://i.imgur.com/j6551ie.jpg)

This gambit never fails to leave me unimpressed. As TheShadowyFeminist (https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4289806-repealthegra-apparently-hails-from-the-right) put it:

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I think I've (almost) become immune to the bad faith smearing of women who have concerns with male inclusion in female spaces as 'right wing' by trans activists. It's no less a bad faith argument coming from a co-founder of [Woman’s Place UK].


* What can I say, I like the name. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clare_(given_name))

(https://i.imgur.com/O4nhk0C.jpg)

I visited Clare's site again, in search of any words of wisdom about the Wi Spa. Didn't find them, but I did spot The Orrery, (https://clareflourish.wordpress.com/2021/07/08/the-orrery/) which charmed me enough to read more, disinclined as I was to give the works of Clare any more of my time. (Here's an example (https://medium.com/prismnpen/keeping-my-penis-under-wraps-1c451938ab17) of someone I have time for.)

An Explanation of Trans Ideology (https://clareflourish.wordpress.com/2021/06/24/an-explanation-of-trans-ideology-jess-de-wahls/) made me reconsider if Clare would indeed last 5 minutes with people who don't agree with the premise that "Anyone who wants to be is a woman." (https://clareflourish.wordpress.com/2020/04/16/woman-transwoman-definition/) For all I know, Clare already has, and then some. That's not to say Clare's powers of reasoning (never mind capacity for empathy) stand up to any real scrutiny; just that when you have a way with words, as Clare undoubtedly does, you can, at least, keep a conversation going... if a conversation is what you want in the first place.

(https://i.imgur.com/amQTpSW.jpg)
"How you can ride side saddle? This is so uncomfortable."
above: Alchemist distilling the essence of Woman, discovers Kool-Aid.
Title: Re: TWAM
Post by: Ernestine on July 14, 2021
Hello - interesting to hear from you David.

I haven't got very much to say in reply - I'm mostly showing up to say I'm still around.

However there is a campaign to have an 'x' box on your birth certificate rather than 'm' or 'f' - this would be a huge advance for those born intersex or hermaphrodite, and I feel, more fundamentally important than any legislation regarding gender identity. I have talked with someone who was subjected to 'correction' surgery as a baby because they didn't fit either box. I want a society where fitting into boxes is not a priority, for all sorts of reasons.

I feel safe enough here to say that I have been assaulted for being a woman, for being a 'batty man' and for being 'weird' - the point to this confession not being to score points on any scale but to say the problem is not mine, it is in the eye of the beholder. I do largely blame behaviourism - the shortcut to niceness for teachers uncomfortable with reason. More hard-hitting than C.P. because internalised as the comfort zone. Sometime around the early seventies we had a better future within focus.

Descending into minutiae of classification to oppose discrimination in particular or in general seems the penultimate irony (The ultimate being the recommendation to register on the database of people who don't want to be on databases.)
Title: Re: TWAM
Post by: 905 on July 15, 2021
I wasn't of an age to appreciate all the 70s had to offer (though apparently had a political conscience, as I remember dissing Nixon (https://www.notanothercyclingforum.net/index.php?topic=256.msg10326#msg10326) on the playground). In some ways it seems much better than where we are now. Even Nixon, bad as he was, would be an improvement on the leadership in the current GOP.

As a minor example of bridling over being put in boxes, my first job required a necktie for us XYs.


This incensed me, as women were allowed to breathe free and subject to no discernable code. I was jealous!

More seriously (though both the physical uncomfortableness and the symbolism of wearing a noose (https://jollygoodthen-75205.medium.com/fashion-victim-51076be54447) are worth diatribes), as a box ticking exercise it's good the NHS knows I'm male. Other than that it seldom comes up except at places like mumsnet, where stereotypes are rife, and on the road, where it's hard not to notice that male cyclists heavily outnumber female. On my old forum I made an effort to keep the atmosphere from getting too blokey.

Today's must-read: (https://twitter.com/Jebadoo2/status/1415062049948852224)
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Just as the mobile phone demanded a personal account of a human on a daily basis with their social media so Genderism demanded an audit of the human soul of the new young. They were to account for their souls to a binary of action man and barbie.

This public form of life by committee meant all those secret, forgotten, private things. Those nights in a forest, that time she got drunk and wore her hair short or he played with makeup. All those crazy wild, tropical butterflies of youth. That vast swarm of colours.....

Each had to be pinned dead to a board and labelled like an exhibit in the natural history museum. This life permanently observed had no space for private, human, wild, nights in the dark. It had no place to accept that something can happen even if it is not observed.

Genderism pinned the butterflies to boards and made them dead and still. The curators told of their wild colours and tropical identities but they had the pallor and stillness of the soul of a thing living half it's life. They became collectors of who they were.
Title: Irreversible Damage
Post by: 451 on July 17, 2021
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(https://i.imgur.com/jB1UHjp.gif)

(https://prettygoodbritain.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/lf.jpg)

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(https://prettygoodbritain.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/statement.gif)

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Regnery was blindsided by the ABA's statement, according to president and publisher Thomas Spence, who denounced the organization's characterization of the incident as "an act of violence." In an e-mail to PW, Spence wrote: "The only explanation I can think of for the ABA's statement that credits them with a rational (though dishonorable) motive is that they're trying to drum up publicity for their annual Banned Books Week promotion, coming in September (this year's slogan: 'Censorship Divides Us'). Perhaps finding books that have been 'banned,' in any meaningful sense, is so difficult that they have been forced to do the dirty work (https://www.publishersweekly.com/pw/by-topic/industry-news/bookselling/article/86883-booksellers-denounce-aba-promotion-of-anti-trans-book.html) themselves."

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For starters, (https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/irreversible-damage-abigail-shrier/1133754701) please take the negative reviews with a grain of salt. I highly doubt they read the book and just looked at the cover. Admittedly, the cover makes it sound antagonistic to the trans community - it's not. This book isn't critiquing geninue gender dysphoria, but rather rapid onset gender dysphoria that is plaguing the hearts and minds of many young LGBTQ+ people. As a lesbian, this book resonates with me a lot. I've been told I should transition because I look more "masculine" and I should "conform to gender roles." What an insane concept to me. What's scary and why I appreciate books like this, is because if I was just a decade or so younger, I probably would've thought I should be a man, that I'm not normal for liking girls as a woman. I probably would've seriously considered transitioning, and the serious psychological plight it would've had once I tried to detransition. (Many aspects of HRT are permanent). Anyway, if you're a parent, gender confused, or LGBTQ+, or just generally curious, please read this book.

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I wasn't sure what to expect with this book. (https://www.amazon.co.uk/product-reviews/1800750366/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_viewpnt_lft?ie=UTF8&reviewerType=all_reviews&filterByStar=positive&pageNumber=1) The subtitle ("The Transgender Craze Seducing Out Daughters") has a definite whiff of moral panic about it, and I was a bit worried it might be a bit cringey, but I heard an interview with the writer and she didn't come across that way, so I'm going to guess it was added by the publishers to try and whip up sales or something. It does at least show pretty clearly who the book is aimed at: parents of teenage girls. Not the girls themselves (but please can someone else write that book, because we need it).

There's a little-discussed phenomenon that's been going around in the last few years known as Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria, which has mainly been affecting girls and young women. Essentially, it does just what the name implies: children who have never shown any sign of gender confusion become suddenly and overwhelmingly convinced that they were born in the wrong body. The teenage years have always been pretty hard on girls and they are more susceptible than boys to mental health issues such as depression, anxiety, cutting and eating disorders. ROGD is just the latest manifestation of this.

The author is really at her best when describing the mental state of girls experiencing the pain of growing up in modern society, with its restrictions, its loneliness, its unrealistic expectations and its ubiquitous porn. She has real compassion, and sheds a lot of light for parents (especially male parents like me) on what their daughters might be going through. She does this without being judgemental and certainly without dismissing actual trans people: she has interviewed many for the book, and refers to them respectfully throughout. To that extent, it isn't really about being trans at all: she wants to distinguish between the different strands of the trans community and point out that in most cases, these girls aren't really a part of it at all.

Having laid the groundwork to establish this, she describes the social contagion aspect of ROGD and related trends, and the online network of people who "support" girls by basically encouraging them to embrace the illness, and offering a ton of peer-pressure to stop them turning back. There are loads of first-hand testimonies to support this. She describes the well-meaning but wrong-headed professionals who are trained to only ever affirm the girls' self-diagnosis, never to suggest exploring other related mental health concerns.

Parents, who know the children best and love them above all else, are often treated by professionals as if they are somehow holding their children back. In some cases they are even given the stark choice "would you rather have a living son or a dead daughter", which is a horrible way of posing the dilemma, since it is designed to hijack the parents' natural protective instincts and guilt them into colluding with their daughters taking Lupron then, later, losing their fertility, changing their voice and appearance permanently and even undergoing unnecessary surgery.

In America, where big pharma has already made a fortune from over-diagnosing childhood ADHD, depression and anxiety, the possibility of a whole new market of lifelong patients to buy hormone blockers, testosterone and pain meds is a godsend. It's really agonising for me, as a parent, to think of children herded down this road to victimhood by adults who really ought to bloody know better. And my heart goes out to the parents in the book, even though they aren't always sympathetic. Some are very supportive, trying to do the right thing, but unsure what that is. Others are bitter and angry at seeing their children lured away by an online cult. And it's the parents, more than anyone, who can benefit from this book, because there isn't really anything else on the market right now.

It's not going to scold you or scare you, it's pretty level-headed. It has its flaws or course, all books do, but it really opens your eyes to what's happening. It shows that there is hope, and that you can be an anchor for your daughter, to help her regain a sense of herself as she is, without feeling like you are hectoring her.

Of course, you'll be castigated by activists anyway and called a transphobes, because that's the world we live in now: read some of the one star reviews from people who obviously haven't read the book if you want to get an idea of what to expect. But someone has to stand up for the girls, and if professionals won't, if the online community won't, well it'll just have to be the parents, won't it?
Title: Re: TWAM
Post by: Ernestine on July 20, 2021
Ah - I guess this incident is a candidate for the Irony #1 spot.

The trans liberation movement is in early days as a popular phenomenon. What odds the current media worship to excess becomes the sauce for a bitter backlash within a decade?

Such tactics have been used before.
Title: Re: TWAM
Post by: david on July 20, 2021
In the old days – that is, for thousands and thousands of years – we had better things to worry about, things which we STILL worry about.  Now we've got some ONE or other person demanding attention.  BAME this, transom windows that.  Anne Boleyn had six fingers on each hand AND six toes on each foot.  Did she complain?  No!  The Archbish had enough on his plate, anyway. 

If kneeling is the knee-jerk reaction to racism, what on earth will be the acceptable response to genderism?  A good kick up the fanny will do it, I'd say.  And I am speaking as an Englishman.  I am assuming these deserving few will have, or will have had, a fanny at some point in their sordid little lives.

I say:  Fuck 'em all, and let God sort them out!  He's been slacking off recently. 
Title: Re: TWAM
Post by: sam on July 20, 2021
Please don't make me regret calling this Free For All.
Title: Re: TWAM
Post by: david on July 21, 2021
I wish to apologise to Fanny Hill, Fanny Farmer, Fanny Craddock, and all other Fannys out there who have had to suffer enough without me entering into the thick of it. For those of you readers who are easily titillated, I direct you to The Janitor @ Urban Dictionary.

And now a word from our sponsor - Quantum Generics, with their new and improved Trinary™️.

Welcome back. If a person says s/he is non-binary, s/he is not a she or a he, but a singular 'they', requiring singular verbs, presumably. They is welcome to it.  But - what is the opposite of non-binary? Binary. If you are not non-binary, then you are binary. That itself is a binary choice, being non-binary. So a non-binary person operates on a binary system of choice.  Unless one is a quantum singularity, like Schrödinger's pussy. And - is a trans person binary? Can one be a trans non-binary?

In another interview (see earlier post), Christine Jorgensen said that transvestism is usually a heterosexual manifestation and has little to do with attraction to the same sex. Where does the notion of gender fit in here?

Whenever I read about the Stonewall incidents of late June 1969 (I arrived in NYC a week later), and transgender people are mentioned, I laugh scornfully. I don't think that the mostly effeminate lads considered themselves as women or girls. Why would they want to label themselves as something they were not? And we're not talking about 'ladyboys' here - that's something else, as are the Kinnar in India and the castrati and eunuchs of earlier times.

None of this should be treated flippantly, as one must respect foreign cultural traditions. What the huge danger now is that irrevocable acts are being treated as lifestyle choices, as if life were a menu card at the Miss Clairol Saloon.
Title: Re: TWAM
Post by: Ernestine on July 21, 2021
I don't know your age, david, but I rather hope this discussion may be one of the acceptable responses to 'genderism'.

Taking the knee lacks the emphasis of a raised fist, but a little irony goes a long way in the sports arena.

The only times I have had to resort to giving an actual kick up the fanny (in the American sense) have been in response to physical assault. I get that you are outraged, but perhaps not to quite that degree? Fortunately neither you or the admirable Ms. Jorgenson (or even possibly God) are obliged to wield the last word on this one, though your latest thoughts,

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"None of this should be treated flippantly, as one must respect foreign cultural traditions. What the huge danger now is that irrevocable acts are being treated as lifestyle choices, as if life were a menu card at the Miss Clairol Saloon."

ring with clarity. It's how you got there that concerns me rather. It's nice to agree, but not always the best idea to paper over the cracks.

The transmogrification of Stonewall as an institution is also interesting and I might ponder on it a bit before wading in.


Chiefly though, I am, I think, part of a native tradition. I experience both the ancient potential and actual problems of childbearing and the ancient problems of not fitting a male/female image. The modern problems of being a logically inclined woman really take the biscuit though.

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" If you are not non-binary, then you are binary."

This statement is not affirmable. In simple analogy my enemy's enemy might be my enemy, friend or have no very particular relevance to me. Here we have been questioning the relevance of 'binaryism' while having this here conversation. Though Schrodinger's cat may be moot Aristotle has surely passed away.

I am interested in people not worrying so much about what they look like. I'm making suggestions as to the powers and interests of the advertising world in deliberately promoting fear of gender non-conformity, and shallow teaching methods inadvertently doing the same. You have a lot of questions. Who are you asking?
Title: Re: TWAM
Post by: david on July 23, 2021
I shall be 73 in a month.

Other than in quantum science, all things are binary: one either takes it or rejects it. To choose amongst A B or C, the choice becomes a set of choices BETWEEN, not amongst, A and any other choice. After that choice, there may be another required, if not-A was the first choice.

If you have ever consulted the I Ching using the traditional stick-sorting method, you will actually experience this as an integral part of the decision-making process. You become a living component of choice.

Is this aleatory?? Aha! I have crossed the Rubicon, right where it enters the Adriatic between Rimini and Cesena. It is a mere stream, barely a rivulet, and a touristy bridge leads one to the decision that crossing on foot is infinitely more symbolic and fun.

If the I Ching is aleatory, then so are all the wonders of this great life.
Title: Re: TWAM
Post by: Humbug on July 23, 2021
I am 3.

I fink we may av scored snake eyes wiv this bloke tho. He binges on words that mean vagina but are a bit ruder, if not quite the C word, makin passin reference ter matters ov racism in a derogatory by the way, and then he comes over all pieous.

If I were lookin fer the Pope I would try the Vatican or Avignon.
Title: Re: TWAM
Post by: Ernestine on July 24, 2021
Cheers Humbug for trying to clear the air.

Perhaps what my rabbit alter-ego is trying to say is that the tone of the conversation could be improved if instead of pontificating in apparent irritation we could explore ideas without going off on quite so many tangents.

I will recap a bit to try and achieve this. One of the things I said earlier is that the dichotomy between trans-critical feminists and feminist-critical trans activists has been widened by the unfortunate nature of the internet, and social media in particular, as a medium that makes it easier to separate into cliques and talk in ways that reinforce clans based on belief systems.

Logic then tends to be subordinate. On some level having a debate on the nature, limitations and potential of logic is a prerequisite for any further definitive discussion of anything. However, while the definition of a binary system as it may relate to logic is essentially relevant to a discussion of whether 'gender' is binary or otherwise, I think the I Ching is beyond the scope of this particular thread.

Quantum phenomena are probably not beyond the pale - uncertainty is a big part of the matter in hand. I get the feeling you believe gender is susceptible to an either/or approach, david, but if so I respectfully suggest you might need to think further. Such a binary holds no place for hermaphodite/intersex identity - an issue which you yourself have raised as relevant. I think we have a system that can only be considered logically as either a spectrum or some kind of multiplicity, whether on an m/f/x basis or something more complex.
Title: Re: TWAM
Post by: sam on July 28, 2021
What changes would you like to see in society to better accommodate intersex people?
Title: Re: TWAM
Post by: XY on July 29, 2021
Meanwhile, here's more reading. (https://quillette.com/2021/07/27/rescuing-the-radicalized-discourse-on-sex-and-gender-part-two-of-a-three-part-series/) Always more reading.

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What we are left with is an imposed system of language that has no connection to physical reality, or to the “lived experience” of anyone except the tiny subset of a subset that created it. In Orwellian fashion, these activists have locked in their favoured dogma by defining the applicable terminology in such a way that dissent is rendered impossible.
Title: Re: TWAM
Post by: Ernestine on July 30, 2021
Unfortunately I can't read the linked article - its cookie editing screen will not fit on my screen. Also there is some reiteration here - well it won't be the first time.

Changes to respect/liberate/recognise intersex people?

First the ability to enter no sex rather than either male or female on birth certificates. It must be the most fundamental kind of human right if ever there was one to be able to exist without your parents having to distort your identity and then being prey to unnecessary surgical intervention/mutilation as an infant.


Also using less gender-based language in general as a conscious effort. The pronoun 'they' as a single gender-neutral term is already here. We use it when we are uncertain of a person's sex and where we are referring to someone (like the bus driver, as in 'Do not speak to the driver or obscure their vision...') whose sex is irrelevant. Further example - Q. 'Where's the plumber?' A. 'They'll be here in a minute.'

The more we do this the easier it gets. There are lots of instances where we do know the sex/gender of a person but it is not relevant to a conversation's topic. I am using 'they' more in these cases too and it isn't awkward.

I like positive approaches to language and breaking through stereotypes essentially better than I like ruling ideas inadmissable on the grounds of them being inadmissable. There are many things to do, like subverting advertising, speaking to people - in unions, on the radio, in the street... making art...

Gender had become a tyranny before ever trans activism reacted to it and exaggerated it. I am a revolutionary at heart. I would quite like gender to wither away through lack of relevance.

I see no way that chopping away at people's bits and pieces can help with that. Long live sex! The establishment should butt out of it - if they hadn't first suppressed contraception then flooded us with it we wouldn't be in half this mess.

That doesn't mean role play is verboten. Gore Vidal makes me laugh/cry in 'Myron' for example.
Title: Re: TWAM
Post by: sam on July 30, 2021
Repetition has its uses. In this case my setting it up got us past that awkward bit where it became clear david wasn't coming back (oops) without getting into a debate about your previous posts. Call me a fool for tangents, but I was fine with the I Ching.

I'm not a debater. I like listening to ideas and having them bubble out in other ways. Doesn't help move a thread such as this along, I know, which was why I was pleased to actually have two very different people posting here. The three of us are of three generations (maybe two and a half), which gave it even more potential to be interesting.
Title: Re: TWAM
Post by: Ernestine on July 31, 2021
I was up for talking about the difference between tranvestite and transexual next by all means, but not quite yet - a few other things were still hanging on the art of conversation, not even mostly about more previous posts. I surely won't enjoy having the I Ching thrown over a knee-jerk reaction or two.

I also considered crying 'NO - not every thing is binary!' in a philosophical vein, with references, but this seems more argumentative and complicated and less conversational than just giving counter examples.

And I haven't got back to you yet on ties as a dress code. The symbolism eluded me up to now. Hmm. I never wear anything wrapped around the neck. Not safe.





Title: Re: TWAM
Post by: sam on July 31, 2021
I remain all ears. (Should I run that picture again? Oh why not.)

(https://prettygoodbritain.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/faceoff.jpg)
Title: Re: TWAM
Post by: Ernestine on July 31, 2021
I hope that doesn't mean the end of conversation.

I was surprised that even recently employers felt they could insist on sex-specific dress codes. There have been a couple of discrimination cases in the UK recently. This article is from 2018 -
https://www.tuc.org.uk/blogs/government-finally-bans-sexist-dress-codes-work

While this discussion about ties pre-dates it considerably -
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/talking_point/2794223.stm
Interesting because the opinions, though various, strike me as being more evolved than a lot of contemporary ones, though missing your symbolic point.

This kind of thing concerning bar staff is a more difficult and still endemic problem -
https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/women-dress-codes-human-rights-1.3476964


Any gender/sex specific dress code is a primitive idea, be it for school, work, or whatever else. On some level it has to be a fetishisation I feel, but I have a hunch most people would find this hard to accept - high heels and make-up, formal neckties are seen as ordinary enough to pass without notice, but they're all bloody weird when you think about it.

Oh dear, now I've found this, contemporary stuff -
https://www.citation.co.uk/news/hr-and-employment-law/dress-code-policy-and-discrimination/
If you scroll down it says,

Quote
"Employers can request a clean and professional appearance from their staff, particularly in customer facing jobs, and this includes make-up. It doesn't matter that this would largely concern only women, as it's a gender-norm."

Well there we have it. Explains a lot. I am beyond furious.

Also I bet it could be legally challenged on a religious basis more easily than on a logical one.