TWAM

[david]

In the old days – that is, for thousands and thousands of years – we had better things to worry about, things which we STILL worry about.  Now we've got some ONE or other person demanding attention.  BAME this, transom windows that.  Anne Boleyn had six fingers on each hand AND six toes on each foot.  Did she complain?  No!  The Archbish had enough on his plate, anyway. 

If kneeling is the knee-jerk reaction to racism, what on earth will be the acceptable response to genderism?  A good kick up the fanny will do it, I'd say.  And I am speaking as an Englishman.  I am assuming these deserving few will have, or will have had, a fanny at some point in their sordid little lives.

I say:  Fuck 'em all, and let God sort them out!  He's been slacking off recently. 

[sam]

Please don't make me regret calling this Free For All.

[david]

I wish to apologise to Fanny Hill, Fanny Farmer, Fanny Craddock, and all other Fannys out there who have had to suffer enough without me entering into the thick of it. For those of you readers who are easily titillated, I direct you to The Janitor @ Urban Dictionary.

And now a word from our sponsor - Quantum Generics, with their new and improved Trinary™️.

Welcome back. If a person says s/he is non-binary, s/he is not a she or a he, but a singular 'they', requiring singular verbs, presumably. They is welcome to it.  But - what is the opposite of non-binary? Binary. If you are not non-binary, then you are binary. That itself is a binary choice, being non-binary. So a non-binary person operates on a binary system of choice.  Unless one is a quantum singularity, like Schrödinger's pussy. And - is a trans person binary? Can one be a trans non-binary?

In another interview (see earlier post), Christine Jorgensen said that transvestism is usually a heterosexual manifestation and has little to do with attraction to the same sex. Where does the notion of gender fit in here?

Whenever I read about the Stonewall incidents of late June 1969 (I arrived in NYC a week later), and transgender people are mentioned, I laugh scornfully. I don't think that the mostly effeminate lads considered themselves as women or girls. Why would they want to label themselves as something they were not? And we're not talking about 'ladyboys' here - that's something else, as are the Kinnar in India and the castrati and eunuchs of earlier times.

None of this should be treated flippantly, as one must respect foreign cultural traditions. What the huge danger now is that irrevocable acts are being treated as lifestyle choices, as if life were a menu card at the Miss Clairol Saloon.

[Ernestine]

I don't know your age, david, but I rather hope this discussion may be one of the acceptable responses to 'genderism'.

Taking the knee lacks the emphasis of a raised fist, but a little irony goes a long way in the sports arena.

The only times I have had to resort to giving an actual kick up the fanny (in the American sense) have been in response to physical assault. I get that you are outraged, but perhaps not to quite that degree? Fortunately neither you or the admirable Ms. Jorgenson (or even possibly God) are obliged to wield the last word on this one, though your latest thoughts,

"None of this should be treated flippantly, as one must respect foreign cultural traditions. What the huge danger now is that irrevocable acts are being treated as lifestyle choices, as if life were a menu card at the Miss Clairol Saloon."

ring with clarity. It's how you got there that concerns me rather. It's nice to agree, but not always the best idea to paper over the cracks.

The transmogrification of Stonewall as an institution is also interesting and I might ponder on it a bit before wading in.


Chiefly though, I am, I think, part of a native tradition. I experience both the ancient potential and actual problems of childbearing and the ancient problems of not fitting a male/female image. The modern problems of being a logically inclined woman really take the biscuit though.

" If you are not non-binary, then you are binary."

This statement is not affirmable. In simple analogy my enemy's enemy might be my enemy, friend or have no very particular relevance to me. Here we have been questioning the relevance of 'binaryism' while having this here conversation. Though Schrodinger's cat may be moot Aristotle has surely passed away.

I am interested in people not worrying so much about what they look like. I'm making suggestions as to the powers and interests of the advertising world in deliberately promoting fear of gender non-conformity, and shallow teaching methods inadvertently doing the same. You have a lot of questions. Who are you asking?

[david]

I shall be 73 in a month.

Other than in quantum science, all things are binary: one either takes it or rejects it. To choose amongst A B or C, the choice becomes a set of choices BETWEEN, not amongst, A and any other choice. After that choice, there may be another required, if not-A was the first choice.

If you have ever consulted the I Ching using the traditional stick-sorting method, you will actually experience this as an integral part of the decision-making process. You become a living component of choice.

Is this aleatory?? Aha! I have crossed the Rubicon, right where it enters the Adriatic between Rimini and Cesena. It is a mere stream, barely a rivulet, and a touristy bridge leads one to the decision that crossing on foot is infinitely more symbolic and fun.

If the I Ching is aleatory, then so are all the wonders of this great life.

[Humbug]

I am 3.

I fink we may av scored snake eyes wiv this bloke tho. He binges on words that mean vagina but are a bit ruder, if not quite the C word, makin passin reference ter matters ov racism in a derogatory by the way, and then he comes over all pieous.

If I were lookin fer the Pope I would try the Vatican or Avignon.

[Ernestine]

Cheers Humbug for trying to clear the air.

Perhaps what my rabbit alter-ego is trying to say is that the tone of the conversation could be improved if instead of pontificating in apparent irritation we could explore ideas without going off on quite so many tangents.

I will recap a bit to try and achieve this. One of the things I said earlier is that the dichotomy between trans-critical feminists and feminist-critical trans activists has been widened by the unfortunate nature of the internet, and social media in particular, as a medium that makes it easier to separate into cliques and talk in ways that reinforce clans based on belief systems.

Logic then tends to be subordinate. On some level having a debate on the nature, limitations and potential of logic is a prerequisite for any further definitive discussion of anything. However, while the definition of a binary system as it may relate to logic is essentially relevant to a discussion of whether 'gender' is binary or otherwise, I think the I Ching is beyond the scope of this particular thread.

Quantum phenomena are probably not beyond the pale - uncertainty is a big part of the matter in hand. I get the feeling you believe gender is susceptible to an either/or approach, david, but if so I respectfully suggest you might need to think further. Such a binary holds no place for hermaphodite/intersex identity - an issue which you yourself have raised as relevant. I think we have a system that can only be considered logically as either a spectrum or some kind of multiplicity, whether on an m/f/x basis or something more complex.

[sam]

What changes would you like to see in society to better accommodate intersex people?

[XY]

Meanwhile, here's more reading. Always more reading.

What we are left with is an imposed system of language that has no connection to physical reality, or to the “lived experience” of anyone except the tiny subset of a subset that created it. In Orwellian fashion, these activists have locked in their favoured dogma by defining the applicable terminology in such a way that dissent is rendered impossible.

[Ernestine]

Unfortunately I can't read the linked article - its cookie editing screen will not fit on my screen. Also there is some reiteration here - well it won't be the first time.

Changes to respect/liberate/recognise intersex people?

First the ability to enter no sex rather than either male or female on birth certificates. It must be the most fundamental kind of human right if ever there was one to be able to exist without your parents having to distort your identity and then being prey to unnecessary surgical intervention/mutilation as an infant.


Also using less gender-based language in general as a conscious effort. The pronoun 'they' as a single gender-neutral term is already here. We use it when we are uncertain of a person's sex and where we are referring to someone (like the bus driver, as in 'Do not speak to the driver or obscure their vision...') whose sex is irrelevant. Further example - Q. 'Where's the plumber?' A. 'They'll be here in a minute.'

The more we do this the easier it gets. There are lots of instances where we do know the sex/gender of a person but it is not relevant to a conversation's topic. I am using 'they' more in these cases too and it isn't awkward.

I like positive approaches to language and breaking through stereotypes essentially better than I like ruling ideas inadmissable on the grounds of them being inadmissable. There are many things to do, like subverting advertising, speaking to people - in unions, on the radio, in the street... making art...

Gender had become a tyranny before ever trans activism reacted to it and exaggerated it. I am a revolutionary at heart. I would quite like gender to wither away through lack of relevance.

I see no way that chopping away at people's bits and pieces can help with that. Long live sex! The establishment should butt out of it - if they hadn't first suppressed contraception then flooded us with it we wouldn't be in half this mess.

That doesn't mean role play is verboten. Gore Vidal makes me laugh/cry in 'Myron' for example.