TWAM

[sam]

Having no skin in the game, I never gave "trans women are women" much thought. When I finally did, I gravitated to "trans women are trans women", which seemed fair enough, if no more satisfactory than "Brexit means Brexit" ever was. It took a marathon session of Magdalen Berns vlogs this past week to help me make the leap to "trans women are men". This is no leap at all unless you usually try to start from a position of empathy.

I have the former Rachel McKinnon to thank for introducing me to the late Berns (and the Mumsnet feminism chat board, which installed a shrine to JK Rowling this summer, for igniting my interest in this knotty subject). Rachel, who has since changed his name to Veronica Ivy, gave an indication of his empathy levels by his reaction as Berns lay in hospice for the glioblastoma which took her life almost a year ago.



McKinnon/Ivy called her "a trash human" and said "maybe live by the maxim whereby, 'Don’t be the sort of person who people you've harmed are happy you're dying of brain cancer'." Words aren’t literally violence as some in the debate are insisting, but the professor does tend to favour violent words.



Her Thighness struck gold in womens cycling. Anyone who follows sports knows this, so needless to say it was news to me. As Spiked put it: "It sounds like a great achievement until you realise that Rachel is a six-foot-tall, 14-stone bloke." That @DonaldJTrumpJr also rolled his eyes is perhaps no surprise, though raising a son who gets it is still not quite a good enough reason for me to vote for his grabby dad this November.

Sorry seems to be the easiest word

"If you want to understand why this topic is so complicated and emotionally charged, please read on. If you want to yell and scream, go back to Twitter," wrote a sympathetic Fred Dreier, whose tweets are a model of decorum. I don't have any skin in that game, either, but even allowing that there are six-foot-tall 14-stone birds, it's my considered opinion that women should not have to make room for men in their sports – including men who no longer have all the bits they were born with (which apparently isn't the case here, or indeed, for most transfolk).



It's up to men to share their spaces with people who do, after all, share their chromosomes. Activists who would storm the gates to XX might at least ponder Chesterton's fence:

In the matter of reforming things, as distinct from deforming them, there is one plain and simple principle; a principle which will probably be called a paradox. There exists in such a case a certain institution or law; let us say, for the sake of simplicity, a fence or gate erected across a road. The more modern type of reformer goes gaily up to it and says, "I don't see the use of this; let us clear it away." To which the more intelligent type of reformer will do well to answer: "If you don't see the use of it, I certainly won't let you clear it away. Go away and think. Then, when you can come back and tell me that you do see the use of it, I may allow you to destroy it.

Magdalen Berns, monotoned boring transphobe to those who have no appreciation for devastating logic delivered in deadpan, is now beyond cancel culture. For anyone else late to the party, here's a taster.

The truth: we all have skin in that game.

[sam]

Moving on from dogmatic mantras, she or he is fine with me

as long as they aren't being a click. I refuse to enter the reality distortion field of outliers like Veronica and Riley, who require a suspension of disbelief too far to engage with on their terms. In Riley's case, it isn't so much the laryngeal prominence as it is the covert aggression, cringey inauthenticity, and twisted intolerance. (The unrelenting jump cuts also do my head in, but it is the way of things.)

Of the many replies to articles and blog posts and videos I've now consumed on this subject, the winner for pith has to be: "I'm not buying what you're selling."

Apologies to those expecting a post about flip-flop hubs.


Know Your Lingo
A refresher.

Everything is transphobic
Sorry about that.

Fact Checking a Widely Shared Rebuttal of J.K. Rowling
"After all, you’d have to be an insane pedant to go through the whole thread trying to correct the record. So, let’s begin." Part 2 (there are 4! – perseverance is amply rewarded) includes the best dissection of 'cis' I've ever read.

Somewhere over the Rainbow, something went terribly wrong
"Definitions matter. Respecting people, matters. Criticising bad ideas also matters."

An Open Letter to the Friend Who Thinks I Hate Transgender People
Sufferin' succotash.

Conundrum
See also The Many Lives of Jan Morris. Subscription or incognito mode required. Note to self: read everything Morris has ever written.

Is Julia Serano right that transwomen are female?
Guess.

I Am a Transtrender and so can you
To live outside the law you must be honest.

Riley J. Dennis Is An LGBTQ Educator
We're all getting an education.

A Pineapple is Not a Broken Orange
Talented speaker, but TMI, and almost certainly a crowd of the unwary. Cassie doesn't handle discussion (as opposed to cheerleading) too well, which is fairly typical.

On Gender, Blurring the Line Between Dogma and Farce
"The current spasm of social panic..." I find the word spasm triggering.

Decoupled from reality
That train has left the station.

Can I ask trans women I'm dating about their genitals?
The comments offer some relief from the advice on offer.

I kind of feel like shock or surprise shouldn't be part of the experience of undressing with someone you're about to have sex with.

Put down the penis, and come out with your hands up.

Expecting people to be attracted to equipment that they're simply not attracted to is -- well, let's call it quixotic.

Yes, it’s Wrong to Tell Trans People
You Don’t Want to Sleep With Them Because of Their Genitals
"I would never tell anyone who they should be attracted to. But."

The Secret Internet of TERFs
Fox News dropped "fair and balanced", The Atlantic picked it up. Worth it to find Sarah Ditum.

J.K. Rowling and the Echo Champer of TERFs
Slate are clearly sold on the agenda, as is the author on his talents. Keep an eye out for the tireless JennyAnyDots; marvel at how she's largely ignored.

Responding to J.K. Rowling’s Essay
I settled in for an hour of enlightenment, but got stuck on the Maya Forstater coverage starting nine minutes in, which included a brief shot of her "very clearly transphobic" tweets. With a fundamental disagreement on what constitutes transphobia, there seemed little point continuing. YMMV.

Clare Flourish
has a way with words, which is always a find. Advertised as open minded and generous of spirit. The evidence is inconclusive.

World's first Transgender MMA Fighter
Quite a speciman.

Inspiration Profile: Pips Bunce
Not technically a wanker banker, but close.


Why I'm Not Getting "The Surgery"
Disproves that old adage that men seldom make passes at girls who aren't lasses. Honestly educational. I've assumed cost was the main reason for not going all the way.

So, About This Surgery
Are you sure you want to be scrolling down, braveheart?

Forget What Gender Activists Tell You
Hard to forget.

Girl Dick, the Cotton Ceiling and the Cultural War on Lesbians and Women
You had me at girl dick.

A Glossary Of Transphobia
Speaking of which.

100 Ways to Make the World Better for Non-Binary People
"Embrace the contradictory and confusing." Sure thing, boss.

42. Give your pet gender-neutral pronouns like "they." This is awesome practice. (And ask me about my rant on how we can never know animals' genders since they can't speak to us...)

So many teachable moments, so little time.



"Gender Fluid" Person Confuses Everyone
Nicky Campbell needs to be drowned like a kitten. That said, I wasn't confused. Maybe a word that rhymes with confused.

disclaimer

Google informs me that "needs to be drowned like a kitten" has never before been uttered online, which comes as a surprise. The phrase popped into my head and refused to be forgotten. For the sake of clarity, I do not condone the drowning of kittens, television presenters, or indeed any living creature, no matter how hapless. Embracing the contradictory and confusing can go too far.

Next on INSIDE edition: Fisherman found guilty of staging kitten rescue video

[close]

Why transgender people are ignored by modern medicine
A cautionary tale of getting what you want, and getting it good and hard.

Things Not To Say To A Trans Person
Annoying in that special way the BBC has of bringing it out in people.

First Day
Did someone mention shameless?


Ah, the perils of top tubes

It's not complicated
That a person can spend as much time as I have wondering if the M in TWAM should be Men or Male shows just how complicated it has become. It should probably be the latter, but it doesn't really matter because both are considered transphobic.

I've Given Birth, But I Am Not My Children's Mother. Where Do I Belong?
Possibly on a different site.

Call 'em They
You get one yes. Choose carefully.

Boop/bob/beep
May the Force be with thee.

There's no such thing as a non-binary haircut
Another reminder that history rhymes.


Do I need a haircut? There's a binary answer.

No, misgendering me is not okay or justifiable. Yes, this is a big deal.
That I value civility and thus can live with a degree of cognitive dissonance in aid of those suffering from dysphoria does not mean I agree that corporeal reality must be cast aside in the race to a brave new world.

"Am I not a woman like they are?" asked Amelia in 2014, to which the answer is of course no. A few years later he was sliced all the fuck up, and although that doesn't change inconvenient biological facts, she's gone some distance to earn the pronoun. I would be more impressed if s/he had been a better sport all along and competed with men.

In The New Transgender World, Women No Longer Exist
"The only way ensure that everyone who knows she is a woman is treated as a woman is to destroy any definition of what it is to be a woman. Is this so hard to understand?"



Assigned Male
Usually found preaching before a congregation of straw men. Here's a good critique. This one's a bit more fun.

Barry makes comics
More straw. More men.

Motorcyclist Who Identifies As Bicyclist Sets Cycling World Record

Why J.K. Rowling must die
With handy flowcharts.

I Am A Transwoman. I Am In The Closet. I Am Not Coming Out.
"Forced to carry multiple perspectives like bactrian humps" isn't a sentence you read every day.

Are Pronouns Important?
"Sometimes I misgender myself."

Eddie Izzard Publicly Requests ‘She’ & ‘Her’ Pronouns
Collective gender euphoria, here we come.

ANOTHER DAY IN (THE MANBOX)



For your Eddiefication if that last link didn't agree with you.

We need to talk about Ellen Page
OK, I'm listening. "Cheer, hit the ‘like’ button, don’t think too much about it, the marching orders go... And leave it to Big Tech to immediately correct the historical record in Elleniot’s service. There was never someone named Ellen and Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia."

Chloe Dygert apology for social media conduct “not sufficient” says Rapha
Definitely not buying what they're selling.

Cat Graffam
"i always land on my feet & throw up on the floor". I'd buy what she's selling.

Should Cis People have the Same Rights as Everyone Else?
The indefatigable Katy Montgomerie tries her hand at satire.

A short dialogue with oneself

Addressing The Claims In JK Rowling’s Justification For Transphobia

Being called a TERF, or transphobic, isn’t an insult. It’s not a bullying tactic. It’s not the same as saying someone has fleas. It’s a description of someone whose views come from a place of irrational prejudice of trans people.

Thanks for clearing that up.

Just how when we are discussing gay rights, women’s rights or the rights of people of colour, pointing out homophobia, misogyny or racism is the first step towards a rational discussion, calling out irrational prejudice of trans people is the first step here.

Go on. I mean, you’ve lost me, but I’m still here.

There is no denying that all of these accusations are sometimes overused or mistargetted, but that isn’t an excuse to instantly shrug them off every single time they are pointed out. How can we discuss an issue that is undeniably, demonstrably surrounded by irrational prejudice if we aren’t even allowed to call that out for what it is?

We may have found common ground.

You cannot address oppression if you cannot name your oppressor.

You shall overcome, eh?

[close]

Can someone please explain…

A suggestion OP. If you read any of the posts on this thread and find them to be describing things that don't seem to make sense or are incomprehensible feel free to assume that they're actually wrong rather than assuming that there's some profound complexity you don't understand.

Tulsi tweets the truth
The truth hurts: it is known.

Umberto Eco & The Bunnymen
Earns a link for the handle alone.

Transtweeting
Not a promising start, but went on to raise some smiles.

Public Pronoun List
Truly a public service.

TERF's Original Sin
Guilt-by-association time again. Bonus points for 'Sonderkommando'.

Bunburys Eighth – Sealion training for beginners
Mumsnet community disruptors watch, one of a series. Yours truly, outing myself after having set off someone’s spidey senses. (I had to look up Cara Dune. Redux was already in the databanks.) Neither sea lion nor duck, the main effect this had was to help push me in the direction of so long and thanks for all the fish.

On a side note, FWR reminds me of HPC: true believers I happen to agree with, but seemingly a despised minority. Though it remains to be seen how much of a minority they are.

Are we the baddies?
Are you spewing hatred and abuse at everyone who has the temerity to disagree? Do you favour violent imagery to get your ideas across? If not, then probably not.

Women are not an identity. Not a feeling. Not a legislative status to be awarded with a certificate. We're the people who are born and die female. No lie will ever be powerful enough to cover that reality. Not ever.

Laé D. Boi
Not related to La-Z-Boy AFAIK. Do tell us more about the subtle nuances of being a woman.

My Pronouns are Fluid and My Identity is Solid
Utterly exhausting.

The Missing Link
I'm glad you exist, Emma.

Transgender ideology
Always more links.

"I invite you to disenchant all of my fairy tales."

[sam]

By now you'll know there's a battle between TRAs and TERFs.

TRA = Trans Rights Activist
TERF = Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminist
Mumsnet TERF = "Tired of Explaining Reality to Fuckwits"

You need a special shirt to be a feminist.



I might be able to fit into one of these



but you don't go to Mumsnet for peace and quiet, do you.






Not everybody considered this to be an olive branch, and Phoenix1234 would go on to feed cynics enough evidence to cast more than enough reasonable doubt. Finally a smoking gun was produced: the OP was caught tweeting about how easy it was to troll. Woe is me, no screenshot. This video captures the spirit of Joss's celebrations:

Then all was zapped.
ZAP
ZAP

You gotta feel for the regulars in these discussions, having to deal with shapeshifters all the time. At least they get a lot of practice honing their arguments and lobbing food for thought.



A progressive might counter: what's so unjust? That's how progress is made.

OvaHere Thu 17-Sep-20 20:24:05

As an illustration of goalpost shifting this is where we've travelled to in less than a decade.



Women and transsexual women

became

Women and transwomen

became

Cis women and trans women

became

Women and trans women are both female

became

Women and cis women (implication that only trans women are women without a prefix)

became

Women (again meaning trans women) and cervix havers/utererus havers/menstruators/non men/people who need an abortion.

It doesn’t take a feminist to see the problem here.

Men on Mumsnet are generally about as welcome as this cyclist:

Going full trans is no guarantee they'll make the cut, no matter how much they may want to gather with the sisterhood to fight the patriarchy. Peace in our time? Not bloody likely.

[Howard Cosell]

Ladies and gentlemen and those still making up their minds, something astonishing is happening. See for yourselves. A civilian is attempting to take control of the ship. Some passengers are applauding, while others have long since bailed out.

Forum moderation and heteronormativity! It's like watching Ali fight Liston on the back of Moby Dick as Ahab arm wrestles Ishmael handicapped by a monkey on his back.

Look at that little monkey! What's that? You want me to step away from the mic? I don't understand.

[Howard Cosell]

The man with no name^[1] and I agree: to most observers, this duel has probably been a draw. My view is that M started well but kind of lost it, her poor arguments and frequent sailing close to the wind of ad hominem rendering her ever less convincing. Serial flouncelets didn't help.



Au revoir ≠ goodbye is a distinction without a great difference, ohdear. This was covered in How To Deal With People You Disagree With^[2] under Common mistakes. I would class believing legal fictions to be non-fiction as another.

Spectators await moderation, such as it is.^[3] Some are experiencing an attack of the vapours.


1. Last seen being wrong
2. Not available as a podcast
3. Bias alert
3b. Et voilà

Short quiz: guess what's often out of fashion, never out of style.

[Mr William Joel]

I mentioned Brexit at the beginning: if you chose the wrong side, you may have made an enemy for life. Nobody still in touch with their humanity wants there to be sides on this issue, but as long as rights are in opposition, there will be.

Truth needs honesty to make it whole. I don't have to agree with you, nice as that is. I do, however, have to believe that you're basically an honest person. This is ascertained by the integrity of your arguments. (That's probably one ascertain too many.) Liking the cut of your jib also comes into play, seeing as we're not all debating society material.


The ears have it

Lacking the bare necessities for debate, i.e., opposing views, I must needs tune in elsewhere – preferably somewhere with bikes nearby, as they make it more inviting. It's a shame that ↑ forum no platformed itself. To coin a phrase, you might not do politics, but politics does you.


Claudius, apparently part giraffe

[House of Lords]

Pregnant women become mums. Who knew.

"In the course of debating the maternity bill in the House of Commons, the word 'woman' was used some three-hundred times, and yet it doesn’t appear in the legislation once; instead, the draft bill refers to 'pregnant people'." - The Critic

House of Lords debate

'Lesbian peer Baroness Barker tears down tired transphobic arguments in powerful House of Lords speech' - Pink News

"I feel that Baroness Barker has gone off the rails a bit. If we were to always use 'gender neutral' language then we wouldn't be able to call this a Maternity Bill." - Lord Forsyth

"This extreme ideology does not want equal rights whilst recognising our differences. It wants to deny those differences exist at all. Happily that agenda has been rolled back today." - Lord Lilley

"It is factually incorrect, as has been referred to here today, that only women can become pregnant." - Baroness Brinton

"This is the ideology of the madhouse. It is a plain fact of human existance that only women get pregnant." - Baroness Meyer

"I make myself feel better when watching @UKHouseofLords members readily disregarding trans people by reminding myself that they’re old, and most of them will be dead within the next 20 years!" - @mimmymum

"Thank fuck for The House of Lords." - Mumsnetter

"For a group to be properly protected by the law, they must be properly identified in the law."

[Baroness Potato Head]

I was assigned male at birth.

Moment of conception

Fortunately I didn’t let my assumed genitalia define me or my life goals, or I might have been just another Mr.

Science tells us that a raw potato produces about .5 volts of energy, but by boiling, we can produce 10x as much. I harnessed this to achieve the rank of Baron, which today I disclose to the world has been a lie.

Our knowledge of whatever ology you care to name has progressed far beyond what most of us were taught as children. We live in a complexted world of nuance. You say potāto, I say potäto.