You Are Here > Across The Road
Son of Triggering
Pale Rider:
--- Quote from: André Gide ---Everything that needs to be said has already been said. But since no one was listening, everything must be said again.
--- End quote ---
Gender again.
Waiting to see if classic33 (or anybody) actually watches that video from Paradox Institute he linked to. They've also done a lot on DSDs, and helpfully provide transcripts. If you're up for a bit more reading, try Quackometer.
--- Quote ---AndyRM: The only people I've ever encountered who have a problem with the term "cisgender" is uh, people who are cisgender. Not a term I care for, or use, but it's funny watching people like you get their panties in a bunch about it. Along with everything else which doesn't fit your Hetty Spaghetti view of the world.
AuroraSaab: It makes women a subset of their own sex. They aren't. Quite rightly, nobody would accept the idea of cisblack and transblack people.
Newfhouse: Tall women and short women are two subsets of women. Sometimes it is useful to be descriptive and sometimes it doesn’t matter.
Monkers: Oh is this another of your immutable binaries? There are black people and non-black people? Or is it that black people are a subset of the human species where whites are dominant because you say so. Another fail.
--- End quote ---
Why monkers acts so monkers:
- As monkers specialises in the antifactual, logical fallacies are on brand.
- The targets spend time rebutting; no matter how well they do it, this still gives strawmen and other shambolic constructs more time on the floor. With TRAs it's always a race to the bottom.
- If someone is attacked enough, enough people will begin to believe they deserve it, ipso facto.
The best way to deal with the gawdawful, aggressively wrong monkers (and 'tools) of the world is to make as much fun of them as humanly possible. Here's a fine example of poking someone else who deserves it – in this case a museum curator:
As humour won't work on those whose sense of humour has been circumscribed by ideological considerations, the next best approach is exactly Aurora's: patiently explaining as if you would to a moderately intelligent child.
Were I to speculate on the state of AndyRM's panties, I'd guess permanent twist.
As for newfhouse, once more into the Venn:
Pale Rider:
Gender again.
More monkers? Very well. First, old business:
--- Quote from: Ian H ---
--- Quote from: icowden ---Lady: a polite or formal way of referring to a woman.
--- End quote ---
Mostly condescending rather than polite.
--- End quote ---
Such gallantry.
That's it. That's the extent of my commentary on that.
--- Quote from: monkers the distinguished historian ---Dead people tend not to mind what people say about them.
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How nice to be prescient in my choice of meme yesterday.
--- Quote from: monkers ---Why is it that you never bother to read, but start bashing the keyboard like a drunken crazed chimp?
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: monkers + ---And so the craziness of the bigots here goes on ... ad nauseum.
--- End quote ---
Monkers has yet to realise that 'bigot' is going the way of 'transphobe' in this debate: the more you use it,* particularly against people who clearly don't deserve it, the less it means anything intelligible.
* ad nauseam, if you will. At the risk of triggering Ian.
--- Quote from: monkers to Unkraut ---If you tell me you have a faith, I'll respect it, up until the point that you say that your faith means that you can impose your beliefs such as the eradication of the rights of others - then I'll likely be annoyed and possibly rude (which is a legitimate way of challenging absolutists since resolution by discussion is pretty impossible).
--- End quote ---
Hallelujah! Transgenderism very nearly being a religion, monkers finally gets it.
The counterclaim/projection is that we're a cult. I've posted some good links about all this, wherever they are. Google has thrown up* this one, which is tainted by the source, naturally.
* Not literally, though you definitely get the idea the search engine gods don't like disgorging gender critical links
Note that Unkraut is no threat to monkers; hence a long post with no coproprojectiles. This is not to say there's nothing objectionable, e.g.,
--- Quote from: monkers ---The Israel/Palestine could not illustrate the point more - people on both sides of the argument are vocal in wishing the eradication of the other, and the signs are they are intent on it, precisely because of their absolutism and refusal to accommodate the other.
--- End quote ---
Testerical analogising of the very real eradication that happens in actual wars aside, TRAs are the ones who tend to violence, when not in deed, in imagery, to get their points across. Those still convinced the "extremists" are equally extreme are committed to a weird kind of fairness.
Accommodation (AuroraSaab is forever suggesting third spaces, but never mind) has meant one side budging up whilst the other takes more and more territory that doesn't belong to them. To anyone not steeped in gallantry misogyny, it's not difficult to ascertain who the bullies are.
--- Quote from: monkers ---If a trans child states their pronouns are she/her then the there is a duty on the teacher to conform. They are not losing their faith as a result; there is no need to vent their objection due to their faith, it is unnecessary yet damaging.
--- End quote ---
See Hilary Cass on the dangers of socially transitioning children.
--- Quote from: monkers ---Vygotsky made some useful points about the role of language in thinking
--- End quote ---
Once you're done with your homework, remember:
--- Quote from: enough monkers for now. Newfhouse: ---WTAF?
--- End quote ---
Newfhouse's first WTAF on this thread and he saves it for icowden. Was it a worthy F to give?
--- Quote from: icowden ---But we should also not be trying to impress modern moral viewpoints on history. It's a bit like saying everyone in the 18th century was racist if they had a slave.
--- End quote ---
Can I just say that I'd love to have a slave. It would be a bit awkward if they were black. Any other colour peeps are welcome to apply for the position. Unpaid, obviously. Perhaps think of it as an internship.
Bobzmyunkle handled this well enough (I may consider deputising him), including his reply to newfhouse, whose willingness to cede the rights of women to men is insult enough.
--- Quote from: newfhouse ---Who* have I insulted?
--- End quote ---
* Like I know if who or whom is correct here. My actual stance can be summed up with another video:
Spoiler
My slave can diagram sentences if need be.[close]
Pale Rider:
F*ck the Tories: a Thread Dedicated to Suella Braverman
--- Quote from: newfhouse ---
--- Quote from: monkers+ ---There are practical ways to accommodate ["trans kids" in wrong sex changing rooms] without recourse to bigotry.*
--- End quote ---
That sentence really ought to be the start and end of this thread.
--- End quote ---
Let's all prove we're not bigots. You first. Bear in mind that hugging a trans person is not a get-out-of-bigotry-free card.
asteriskLink not in the original quote, in case you haven't figured that out. These days I usually add a + to the attribution when I do this. (CycleChat throws in links all the time, and gets paid to do so. I work for free.)
It's a Mumsnet thread where Robin Moira White made an appearance. ← That's a link to an archived page of an earlier post here where I wonder aloud if monkers has ever been seen in the same room as Robin (or multitool for that matter). Don't try to click on the video there, go here if you want to watch it. Or here and scroll down where it's embedded, to avoid YouTube ads. Anyway, I've linked it to show I'm on the case when it comes to monkers.
--- Quote from: monkers ---do kindly remember my background
--- End quote ---
The thing to remember about monkers is, though monkers can seem to talk a good game at times, monkers comes from a place of utter fallibility.[close]
--- Quote from: Bromptonaut ---When my OH announced to her then academic research Chemistry colleagues she was going to train as a Secondary School teacher the response of one of them, an American, was "Ahh Liz, the walking gonads".
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: monkers ---As you certainly know, most of the girls hit puberty before [year 9], but many of the boys you knew at the end of year 8 are suddenly hairy, with lower voices and reeking of testosterone.
--- End quote ---
My bold. Nice to see two of our resident realityphobes acknowledging, if only indirectly, that it might not be a good idea to give boys greater access to girls in states of undress. Yes, even the ones with trans immunity.
In future it would be helpful to lump all the nonsense into the gender thread, to avoid me having to search it out.
Starmer's Vision Quest
--- Quote from: multitool ---Rosie Duffield is this century's Kate Hoey
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What did I just say.
Where were we? Oh right, F*ck the Tories:
--- Quote from: monkers+ ---all part of your intention to whip up moral panic.
--- End quote ---
I was careful not to pull a classic33, thinking it best to actually that before posting it. Well, the first few minutes at least (some made it further), which so reeked of hypocrisy that I was confident I'd chosen a good one to represent the other side.
From a thread about another fucked Tory...
--- Quote from: Froodwithatowel ---once you have agreed that some male people should be able to use women's spaces, you have made your peace with the fact that many vulnerable women must accept having no access at all to the women's space or any space, so that males can have more comfort, choice and understanding of their complex situation.
It is a sex based, binary decision rooted in male supremacism. You believe that male people's needs and complexities matter - and that women's don't. And that it's ok to take everything from some women so that some men can have more.
It's morally indefensible.
--- End quote ---
Pale Rider:
Across the other road to YACF:
It's open season on trans people
--- Quote from: fd3 ---New shoes prompted a shop at stonewall for new laces. Went with a mix of rainbow, trans and non binary. New shoes are rainbow right, trans flag left (because I use power grips on my right pedal and they would foul the whiter laces).
#1 son (14) asked about them, so I talked about his godmothers and showing support and explained a bit about the "T" in LGBTQ+. He said something along the lines of "I support them and all if that's what they want to do, but I don't really get it", which is the right default point to start from.
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Support without knowing what you're supporting as a default is kind of why we're in the mess we're in. I'd say put a sock in it if that would help.
--- Quote from: Steph ---That is brilliant!
--- End quote ---
Hold on, we're not done with #1 son:
--- Quote from: Joanna Williams @Civitas ---In less than two decades ‘transgender’ has gone from a term representing individuals and little used outside of specialist communities, to signifying a powerful political ideology driving significant social change. At the level of the individual, this shift has occurred through the separation of gender from sex, before bringing biology back in via a brain-based sense of ‘gender-identity’. This return to biology allows for the formation of a distinct identity group, one that can stake a claim to being persecuted, and depends upon continual validation and confirmation from an external audience. All critical discussion is a threat to this public validation and it is often effectively curtailed.
That transgenderism has moved from niche to mainstream tells us more about the rest of society than it does about transgender individuals. People in positions of power within the realms of media, education, academia, police, social work, medicine, law, and local and national government have been prepared to coalesce behind the demands of a tiny transgender community. Previously authoritative institutions now lack confidence in their own ability to lead and look to the transgender community as a victimised group that can act as a source of moral authority. However, this, in turn, erodes sex-based rights and undermines child protection.
The expansion of transgender rights has gone hand in hand with an expansion of state and institutional (both public and private) regulation of speech and behaviour. This highlights a significant difference between today’s transgender activists and the gay rights movement of a previous era. Whereas the gay rights movement was about demanding more freedom from the state for people to determine their sex lives unconstrained by the law, the transgender movement demands the opposite: it calls for recognition and protection from the state in the form of intervention to regulate the behaviour of those outside of the identity group.
--- End quote ---
Those of us without the special shoelaces?
--- Quote from: Steph ---I differentiate much the same way, but with an extra twist in that I speak of intellectual understanding as separate from 'empathy', in a loose sense.
--- End quote ---
I'm a little lost here. Are we still on shoelaces, in a loose sense?
--- Quote ---I am female. Always understood that, always knew it. I can't define what that means, because identity is a personal internal feeling for everyone, in their own individual experience of it.
--- End quote ---
If #1 son were to meet Steph in person – maybe he has already – I'm confident he'd know Steph is male, no matter how much the grownups are attempting to make him distrust his senses.
--- Quote ---I intellectually understand non-binary ID, but as I am not of that type, I don't grok it. I have no experiential link.
--- End quote ---
Steph's in good company. Nobody has a non-binary experiential link.
--- Quote from: still Steph ---I don't get men either,
--- End quote ---
I think he knows himself quite well. He is, after all, his favourite subject.
--- Quote ---even though I had to learn how to play one, often through severely violent 'lessons'. Just like non-binary folk; I watch things like male dominance contests, and just go "Why? What's the point?"
That said, I wish them as groups no harm. Equality/equity etc. "I don't really get it but..."
--- End quote ---
He doesn't get women, that's for sure.
Some of us non-women go the extra mile and see the bigger picture, whereas trans rights/men's rights (#KeepItUp indeed) activists are trapped in a bubble of narcissistic rage
--- Quote from: classic33 ---Why not just say why you don't like trans women and to a lesser extent, trans men?
--- End quote ---
and bewilderment. They cannot process anything outside their own frame of reference or the "progressive" narrative. And with that we're back at CycleChat.
Starmer's vision quest
--- Quote from: theclaud ---Any chance we could refrain from feeding CXRAndy's obsession with The Transes in at least one thread?
--- End quote ---
Better have a word with yourself.
More where that came from
--- Quote from: AndyRM ---It's bordering on the obsessive to be honest.
--- End quote ---
"Why do you lot think so much about other people's genitals?!"
At the risk of making it sound as if CXRAndy has a STD, he has barely scratched the surface of all the issues gender ideology presents. Being confronted with their own limited knowledge and awareness doubtless makes people like AndyRM and classic33 uncomfortable.
If you're obsessed about the truth and called out for it, take the compliment.
Gender again. S'alright.
--- Quote from: monkers to AuroraSaab ---Oh do stop inventing more stuff...
You try hard to make much out of nothing.
I have a sex identity, a gender identity, and yet another for sexuality. I'm a female, a gay woman. You haven't figured out who you are; that's not everyone else's problem.
--- End quote ---
As monkers is just as unreliable a narrator as Steph, there's no way of knowing what monkers means by 'female', 'gay', or 'woman'.*
--- Quote from: a reddit{shudder}or ---being a lesbian that doesn't have genitalia preference
If they want to say we aren’t lesbians or invalidate trans identities then they need their own term, because I’m tired of them being in our community and making it unsafe. They can’t have lesbian because lesbianism has always included trans women regardless of genitalia. We fought for this community, we died for it, we own lesbian as much as cis women do. I refuse to cede it to anyone consumed by hate. They can have their own little community of hateful people.
--- End quote ---
Just throwing this in here for fun. I'd be willing to bet monkers cut monkers's teeth in the testosterone everglades of reddit {shudder}.
* Correction. Well that clears that up.
--- Quote from: monkers ---
--- Quote from: AuroraSaab ---Thanks for the heads up on Prof Jenny Gamble.
--- End quote ---
You're welcome.
--- Quote from: monkers+ ---Jenny Gamble ... Gender identity is important. Stereotypes are important
--- End quote ---
--- End quote ---
FTFY.
Anyone just stumbling into all this might start by separating the TQ+ from the LGB (perhaps this could be done using shoelaces) and examining the issues of the separate cohorts. That seems to help most people 'get it.'
--- Quote from: monkers ---
--- Quote from: AuroraSaab ---How can [gender identity] be innate in some nationalities but not in others? You're either born with a gender identity (that may or may not match your sex, you've claimed), or you're not. Spoiler alert: you're not, nobody is.
--- End quote ---
Spoiler alert; you don't know what you are talking about because you are a self-centred bigot who doesn't give a flying fark about the harm they cause to others.
--- End quote ---
The sheer repetition of the characterisation of Aurora as heartless monster will be enough to make it stick for some, despite its absurdity. This is straight out of the TRA playbook.
F*ck the Tories: a Thread Dedicated to Suella Braverman
--- Quote from: monkers ---We are all entitled to our own opinions, but you are not entitled to your own facts.
--- End quote ---
A favourite of both sides for the benefit of our scrutiny. If you've been following monkers and AS, you'll have long since made up your mind about them.
I was going to call the following standalone piece 'The 9 Circles of Hell (And So It Goes)', but it looks more like a maze. Better yet:
Pale Rider:
spoilerWomen attacked by blind cannibals in the bowels of the earth.[close]
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--- Quote from: us ---AAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!
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