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Author Topic: Calling all men

Calling all men
« Reply #60 on: February 28, 2024 »
Quote from: ian
Arguments aside, I'm sure most men (at least those I know) understand the rules, such as they are, about engaging with women. There are a small number, I'm sure, who don't and they probably are creeps or have very rudimentary social skills.

Isn't this a bit like white people claiming racism doesn't exist because they, the white people, have never experienced it?

Surely if you want to know how prevalent creepiness is you'd have to ask women rather than yourself.

ian

Calling all men
« Reply #61 on: February 28, 2024 »
I don't even know how you'd get any of that from what I wrote, since I said the opposite thing, that many men literally understand this and will indeed, for instance, not closely follow a woman home or expect them to engage in conversation. Of course, an unreasonable number don't.


Of course, women get to interpret their experiences as they will, to reiterate I was merely pointing out that a majority of men do understand the potential nature of their interactions with the other sex, and seek to mitigate those, even if sometimes imperfectly. Thusly, while I might be pleasantly pleased when a young woman feels she can have an ordinary conversation with me, I would be reluctant to initiate the same conversation. On some level, I suppose, it's a bit sad that we live in a society where women are forced to perceive men as a potential threat or as the holders of some unsavoury motive, but I quite understand why they do and that as fears go, is entirely rational.

Calling all men
« Reply #62 on: February 28, 2024 »
Quote from: Ian
I don't even know how you'd get any of that from what I wrote, since I said the opposite thing, that many men literally understand this and will indeed, for instance, not closely follow a woman home or expect them to engage in conversation. Of course, an unreasonable number don't

Nope. You said "most" men.

How on earth can you claim to know this?

You qualified it by saying "at least the ones I know". Again, I don't know how you can claim to know this.

Calling all men
« Reply #63 on: February 28, 2024 »
I'm a woman and I'm honestly not sure what percentage of men (where man is teenage boys upwards) know how to behave appropriately around women and indeed what percentage of the time they know how to do this (as often it's things like groups of young men showing off to their mates, or men doing creepings when they think no one will catch them).

One thing many women who get a lot of creeping report is how much less creeping they get if ANY OTHER men are around, or they are (perceived to be with) a man. A blonde female friend has shown her male partner this by getting him to not to travel "as if with her" and act like he's just another rando passenger in London. Suffice to say his Eyes Were Opened considerably as Creep-Menz behaved more blatantly and horribly when they thought Friend was alone vs WithMalePartner.

Some Men know their behaviour is NOT OK so they will act like they behave and believe appropriately about/around women when they are around people who they know would not approve; then go off a creeping when they are not around people who know/judge them for it.

I'm also thinking about things like Dickpics which seem to be INCREDIBLY common things for some women to receive (I block DMs from non followers partly to avoid this happening).

I think also there's been changes. There are men I know now whose behaviour has improved along with society/community changes in 'acceptable norms' and to their credit have learned from their past and tried to improve on it (which something any/all of us can do on poor behaviour we've learned like racism, sexism, LGBTphobia, classism and have to teach ourselves to unlearn).

I'm sure there is some research showing prevalence, but I'm too ill/tired to dig any out and use non-existent brain cells identifying whether the research is flawed and so on.

ian

Calling all men
« Reply #64 on: February 28, 2024 »
[A reminder that this is a recreation of a thread at Yet Another Cycling Forum's politics board which is invisible to guests and members who don't sign up to see it.]

Quote from: Hot Flatus
Quote from: ian
I don't even know how you'd get any of that from what I wrote, since I said the opposite thing, that many men literally understand this and will indeed, for instance, not closely follow a woman home or expect them to engage in conversation. Of course, an unreasonable number don't

Nope. You said "most" men.

How on earth can you claim to know this?

You qualified it by saying "at least the ones I know". Again, I don't know how you can claim to know this.

Because that's literally how most men I know behave. Maybe not all of them. It's not a scientific study, it's an anecdote based on my experience of those individuals. Maybe I'm wrong to extrapolate more widely. I mostly hope not. What percentage of men still think, in 2024, that it's OK to approach random women, I don't know. I suspect not most men though. That does indeed leave too many.


People have expressed some interesting points in this topic, in a mostly reasonable way, and I told a pleasing anecdote of a totally normal and honestly quite pleasing interaction with a member of the opposite sex, but also expressed my understanding why I would have no expectation for that interaction to go the other way.


Look, I get that you don't like me, but constantly twisting my words to make whatever point you think you're making so you can manufacture whatever conflict you seem to want with me, it's not much fun for me and not much fun, I imagine, for anyone else. I'll call it a day, there's not much point in contributing to the group.

Calling all men
« Reply #65 on: February 28, 2024 »
Ian I think one point Flatus is trying to make is that as a man, you inherently won't ever witness/experience how your male friends behave when you are not around. By your very presence, you (and any other male friend) change their behaviour.

Anecdote is incredibly dangerous when discussing bigotry/discrimination/sexism. Cos none of us see the behaviour we don't experience, it either doesn't happen (or happens less) around us, or we simply are not attuned to register it. I had my own eyes opened when I walked around in public for the first time with a dark skinned Indian friend in my 20s. Even little deaf me heard the P word once or twice and friend said that by being 'with me' the P word prevalence was a lot lower than their usual expectation.

We would ALL like to believe our friends aren't the perpetrators of creeping/bigotiness, but I honestly don't think we can ever know for sure, and I don't know (but would be interested) in whether anyone does know how one could engage on this?


Sniping aside, this thread has been really interesting and useful to read/engage with. I have found it interesting to see how some YACF men who don't want to scare women are thinking about your behaviours as well as how some women are thinking/behaving (or men report their close women discuss/behave on this issue).

sam

Calling all men
« Reply #66 on: February 28, 2024 »
Quote
What percentage of men still think, in 2024, that it's OK to approach random women, I don't know. I suspect not most men though. That does indeed leave too many.

I'd like to think that's present company excluded, but accept that not everyone is going to agree with my blatant socialising with strangers out in the world. Pray (you're not helping, example!) do give the video a listen if you haven't. My favourite bit, which arrived with exquisite timing in this thread, is @3.47:

[quote or spoiler? Both]
"So to add to everything else, I guess we felt a sense of relief when you stopped us."
[/unquote]

One last crossposting link: my blog – wherein I expand upon what I post here, if anyone's interested. Also open to guest replies, particularly on this topic.

Calling all men
« Reply #67 on: February 28, 2024 »
Quote from: ian
Look, I get that you don't like me, but constantly twisting my words to make whatever point you think you're making so you can manufacture whatever conflict you seem to want with me, it's not much fun for me and not much fun, I imagine, for anyone else. I'll call it a day, there's not much point in contributing to the group.

I didn't twist your words. I literally quoted them.  And I don't "constantly" twist your words. I very rarely interact with you. 

But if you feel you must flounce because I had the temerity to question the point you made, then that is your prerogative. Again.

Quote from: barakta
Ian I think one point Flatus is trying to make is that as a man, you inherently won't ever witness/experience how your male friends behave when you are not around. By your very presence, you (and any other male friend) change their behaviour.

Anecdote is incredibly dangerous when discussing bigotry/discrimination/sexism. Cos none of us see the behaviour we don't experience

...is exactly the point I was making.

But there is another point I made too, and that is that the group responsible for the oppression should not be the group to determine the extent of the oppression. It should be the oppressed. Not only because the oppressor will never experience it, but also because they might not even recognise it as oppression.

Calling all men
« Reply #68 on: February 28, 2024 »
I'm in agreement with Flatus there.

Why do a contingent of men think it is okay to behave in an innapropriate way toward women? I think understanding (and doing something about) that is perhaps key to living in a world where a friendly hello is not eyed with suspicion.

One stand out moment for me, was at a gig back in the late 90s for a commercially successful band. The lead singer was female. She has a track which is an intense heartfelt vocal accompanied by herself playing piano. During this part of the performance, a group of men started singing 'get your baps out'. They were persistent and they would not stop. It was a sizeable group and eventually they were ejected from the venue.

Not only was this creepy, it was incredibly disruptive. It absolutely isn't fair that any women should put up with it..
I guess the motive here was dehumanising and objectifying this talented performer because these men were misogynists?

With the one-on-one creep situations, is it misogyny or lust/frustration? I recall from my teenage years going to town with a friend for a hair cut. I remember him bragging to me about how close his elbow was to the hair dressers genitals. At the time I was too young and naive to think much about it. It's funny how this thread has reminded me about it. I guess that could easily be dismissed as teenage hormones. In hindsight I see it as creepy, but I suppose it shows how teenagers/young men encourage each other to think innappropriately which no doubt leads to innapropriate behaviour in some cases.

Calling all men
« Reply #69 on: February 28, 2024 »
Quote from: Hot Flatus
Surely if you want to know how prevalent creepiness is you'd have to ask women rather than yourself.
Which is why this thread starts off with a fucked-up idea. "Calling all men"? There are two (at least) things wrong with this:

1. Why are you calling men not women? This is the point Flatus makes. It's like "Calling all motorists. How common do you think bad driving around cyclists is?"

2. "Look at me! I know how to talk to women! And overtake cyclists! I'm such a good person!"